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  • [-]Would you say that most women with a diagnosis of down syndrome in CVS/amnio abort? I am just wondering since I never run into any dc with down syndrome. I am 41 and thinking of getting pregnant again but it just occurred to me that I am underestimating the risk since every one gets rid of dc with disabilities if diagnosed early.

    25 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    03.18.10, 08:36 AM [ Flag ]
    • I've never been in that situation, but I think I might. I know a child with DS. Not sure if the parents found out prior to birth. Mom was only 30/31, but in the midwest, where that is old. She had a second very healthy baby recently.

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      03.18.10, 08:38 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • it all depends on the woman. I'm 41 too and had my 3rd dc at 40. The only way I would have terminated is if the baby had a life threatening condition and would have no chance of life. On the other hand my best friend is the same age, was pg at 40 and said she would abort of the dc had down syndrome.

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      03.18.10, 08:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • That's the same for me. Wouldn't abort for DS. But like I said, I don't think you see the "true numbers" of DS dc since (at least in the City) everyone aborts.

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        03.18.10, 08:40 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Statistics show about 90% of those who find out abort. That indicates that the vast majority of women who have CVS or amnio do indeed decide to terminate, but the vast majority of pregnant women do not have CVS or amnio. I had CVS, both times, and certainly would have terminated.

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      03.18.10, 08:40 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • i will say that if I found out I don't think I could abort. dh absolutely would. it would be the dissolution of our marriage, frankly, and for that reason, I'm not pushing my luck. no more kids for me.

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      03.18.10, 09:06 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Yes, statistically most abort. Yet I know of one case - a friend is about to give birth to a dd with Down's. She went through amnio, etc., but in the end just couldn't do it.

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      03.18.10, 09:13 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • An OB friend (not OB for pregnancy) told me that you and DH should decide BEFORE the amnio/CVS what course of action you would take before you get the results. You will be a little more at peace with the decision that way. GL.

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      03.18.10, 09:13 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It is quite disturbing to me that people would abort. It's like playing God. Why do you get to decide this child does not deserve his/her life? It's like saying, you're not the picture-perfect baby we were hoping for. Plenty of individuals with Down Syndrome lead happy lives.

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      03.18.10, 09:14 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I kind of agree, but you can't live other people's lives for them, or judge. Maybe they have other disabled children, maybe they can't afford the extra therapies that would be required, maybe they are single parent.

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        03.18.10, 09:18 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I grew up in a very Catholic city in the midwest. There were a lot of children with downs there--usually they were the cabooses in large religious families. I think most of those women refuse CVS/amnio, though, too.

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      03.18.10, 09:28 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • interesting observation- about the caboose - wonder how many practiced BC after that-

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        03.18.10, 10:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • i think it may be that, and also just that by the time the caboose comes along the moms are older (in their 40s) so have a higher chance of having a baby with downs. i am sure a mom with eight kids, the youngest of whom has special needs, might rethink the no-birth control thing!

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          03.18.10, 03:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I think the general perception is that there is no reason to test if you aren't considering termination. I don't agree with that, but that seems to be common opinion. While I don't know of an children w DS in NYC, I do know several in other places - and not always born to older mothers either. I think that with my first pregnancy I would have considered keeping a child w DS (as opposed to a more life threatening genetic disorder) but not with my 2nd. I think that it is DH & my choice to devote our life and resources to a SN child, but that it would not be fair to an existing child. This is based in large part to conversations I've had with friends who have seriously SN siblings and the burden it placed on them and their families and ho...

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      03.18.10, 09:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I have heard the 90% statistic before. I agree with the pp who said that you and dh have to be on the same page before you get pregnant and tested. As for the question of "wanting the perfect child" it is a totality of people's lives. There are some DS babies who are functional but some are not, some have no other medical problems and some have severe heart issues. Also, while DS is the most commonly diagnosed chromosomal issue, it is not the only one. Keep in mind that serious medical issues frequently require round the clock care that a family may be unable to provide - financially or personally.

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      03.18.10, 03:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • for example in my family, open heart heart surgery, ear surgery, six rounds of chemo and the child is not yet 4. On top of this, because so many do abort there are very little resources dedicated to DS. don't get me wrong plenty of $ for special needs but the sytems tends to do weird things like say O.K. we have this good special needs program and you find out the child would be in class with kids have polar opposite issues. In this case, the initial testing missed it and no amnio was done as the mother was 30 and first child.

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        03.18.10, 06:00 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Probably. That said, I'm 41 and pg. Had my nuchal the other day. Measurement was .85. If the bloodwork results (they'll be back on Monday) are as great, I'm not bothering with invasive testing.

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      03.18.10, 03:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I would terminate, of course. It's not a person yet. Why not?

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      03.18.10, 04:17 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • This is so sad to me. I understand how difficult it could be to raise a child with Down's, but I have known several families with Downs children and they are bring such joy to their families, the thought of aborting a child b/c he or she is not perfect is really sad--and you have to wonder where it will lead. A close friend aborted a Downs baby and I really, really felt for her. It was an absolutely agonizing decision, and it stays with her to this day even though it happened 7 years ago.

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      03.18.10, 06:24 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • statistically most DS kids are born to mothers who are in their 20's because they don't test

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      03.18.10, 06:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • np AND they have more babies as a group. I know someone who had a DS baby at 27. Only found out at delivery.

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        03.18.10, 06:54 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Hijack: For those who would NOT abort if CVS or Amnio results were positive for Downs Syndrome. What are your thoughts on life as the mother of a child with Downs?

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      03.18.10, 06:55 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]It irks me to no end when 2nd or 3rd wives complain about the child support that their husband provides to his other kids. Just this morning, a 2nd DW SAHM was complaining that her DH has to pay $2000 a month to his first wife for child support and it will be a long time since DH has 3 kids under 3 (one hers). Now you do the math..DH seems to have the 3rd one in the works with current DH when poor ex-DW was in labor (never met ex-DW). Had to vent!

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    03.18.10, 11:42 AM [ Flag ]
    • some people have no shame I guess. My husband has an ex-wife, she was paid a lump sum. Besides, it's none of my business. Doesn't come from my salary and they were married for longer than we have.

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      03.18.10, 11:56 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Next thing you know the ex might want him to pay for school for his children...they might even dare to ask for health insurance!!! ... no seriously did you smack this women upside the head?

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      03.18.10, 11:59 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • OP - I really wanted too. I am happily married to a DH, first marriages for both but I was soo annoyed at her, kids are expensive, $2000 a month won't even take care of preschool for 2 kids. Almost suggested she volunteer to watch them everyday since she is a SAHM to help reduce the payment but then I felt sorry for the kids.

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        03.18.10, 12:03 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I am so happy that my DH pays child support and beyond for his two children from before our marriage (we have a 2 year old DD.) How could anyone begrudge this? They are his children! Paying child support is the right thing, legal, moral, cosmic, karmic and otherwise, to do. So is welcoming the children into your home & life with an open heart.

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      03.18.10, 12:09 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • My mother was the first wife. I remember my father's second wife always complaining about their finances. Which was hillarious because their house was pretty nice and they ate well. We had nothing. My father asked her to take me shopping once when I got to high school, for every sweater she bought me she bought 2 for her niece (they didn't have children).

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      03.18.10, 12:23 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I am that 2nd DW. I understand DH has to pay child support, and have no problem with that. I've even offered them money to put sds into private school if his parents want. However, DH's ex-wife does not work at all and complains that she doesn't have any money. She always asks for money but won't show DH receipts or overlook her finances. And she cheated on him, so it really shouldn't be his job to pay for her hair cuts, pedicures, etc. If she wants those luxuries, she should work for it. sds is 9, so he's in school all day.

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      03.18.10, 01:02 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Hmm..how long were DH and his 1st wife married? Did 1st DW work when married to your DH?

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        03.18.10, 02:16 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • They were married about 10 years. She did not work when they were married. She claims she can't get a job, because she doesn't speak English, but she speaks English better than many housekeepers and nannies I know.

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          03.18.10, 02:35 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • RE your DH's first marriage - remember that you know only one side of the story - his! Maybe he cheated on her, abused her, whatever, you don't know that she doesn't deserve what she's getting now. You weren't there.

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        03.18.10, 02:53 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • ita. dh and I are divorcing and he portraits me as the devil. meanwhile, this man has cheated throughout our marriage, has been verbally, emotionall, and physically abusive. I'm sure he tells his gf that I'm dirt, and that's I'm trying to ruin his life.

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          03.18.10, 02:58 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • this, sadly, is my sister-in-law. her dh had a daughter when they dated (for 2 or 3 years). has always been jelous of dd, the girl is a dream (btw). takes issue with dh not disciplining her enough. the girl has to be absoluelty perfect of sil has a fit and then want her dh to back her up. made dh go to court to have child support reduced. got marrried and he really didn't want any more kids. now they have two and money is tight. her dh's poor daughter is commuting to school b/c sil will have a royal fit if she can't maintain the lifestyle she's accustomed to with dh and their 2 daughters. the man is miserable. If my dh treated my child like that, I would hate him, but that's just me.

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      03.18.10, 02:53 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • That is pathetic. Does she think her husband should *not* support his kids.

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      03.18.10, 03:03 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • This comments irks me to know end. I am with 1st and only dc and we have 3 dc. I have sold 2 potentially successful businesses after several yrs of sweat and tears before they hit cruising altitude, just to move from dh's corporate ladder climbing career. I can't imagine how much I could have made had I been him. He has an obligation to our dc and to me for allowing his career to take precedence.

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      03.18.10, 04:08 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I grew up with a mother like this. She complained non-stop about how my dad's ex-wife's kids lived better than she did. She yelled and berated him every time the evaluations for great child support came. Since I was 8yo, my mother told me, "Never marry a man who has kids from another marriage." She was so angry about child support and spoke constantly about how they were getting taken advantage of. I wound up finding out that my half-siblings actually grew up nearly in poverty and that my mother was complaining about my father paying $300 a month when his HHI was $50K. Haven't told my mother I know this, just found out recently while going through their old tax returns.

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      03.18.10, 04:22 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]I disagree that public schools are more diverse. The ones people are dying to get into on this board are mostly white or G&T programs are housed in schools that are horribly segregated. Or all black. Very rare are schools that have racial diversity. And socioeconomic diversity is limited, too. G&T - mostly middle class. Good zoned schools - wealthy families who can afford the $$$ housing. Or inner city schools - poor. Maybe one or two exceptions, but vast majority are not diverse.

    90 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    03.17.10, 03:35 PM [ Flag ]
    • THANK YOU. Where in hell do you see diversity (skin color and economic) in say PS 243 or PS41? The kids that I know that go to these schools all come from fam. with $$$$ and they pretty much all have the same skin color.

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      03.17.10, 03:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • we are at one of those schools and do not have $$$ and i know many, many people in the same boat. i grant you there could be more visible diversity (the non-white dcs are mostly asian--chinese, indian, korean--not as many aa's and hispanics), but there are TONS of non-native english speakers from france, germany, israel, south america and on and on. why is that not diversity?

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        03.17.10, 03:43 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • generally when the city says diversity they are talking about fam. of color (hispanic, black, asian (including indian)) and of course economic, fam. make up, ect. BUT in order to attend those schools that are on everyones radar you must live in the area. That area is NOT made up of ppl struggling (unless they have a super duper rent stabilized apt inherited from a fam. member). So you won't see many poor blacks or hispanics. Not saying all fam. are rich but when you compare those fam. to someone who lives check to check and can't afford enrichment classes, ect...they are rich (or at least comfortable)

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          03.17.10, 03:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • but this is the way it works in the suburbs as well. why does everyone slag ps234 and not the chappaqua public school system?

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            03.17.10, 03:49 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • yes I know it works that way in the burbs. My sister moved to the most sought after public school district on Long Island for the small classes, ect. There is NO diversity there...at least some of the good city schools have their token kids..that school doesn't reflect reality at all (but don't get me started there)

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              03.17.10, 03:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • according to private school system there is visible and non-visible diversity. btw, it's not the "city" who defines who is diverse.

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            03.17.10, 03:50 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ita, signed mom of a child in ps6

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        03.17.10, 05:11 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ps41 and ps234 are 70% and 73% white respectively. can you post the stats for a private school that is more diverse? tia.

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        03.17.10, 05:38 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • What are the percentages of black and Latino families at these schools? PS 41 and especially PS 234 have less economic diversity than most independent schools.

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          03.17.10, 07:43 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • np - Excuse me? Why do you only count Black and Latino families?

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            03.17.10, 07:59 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Exactly. In ps 234, it's predominantly white and visible diversity is mostly asian with a splash of hispanics and aa. When we toured the schools (private and 234), 234 was the least diverse visibly but it's b/c it's a zoned school and tribeca is predominantly white and asians.

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            03.17.10, 08:02 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • FWIW, 9% of students at 41 qualify for fed free lunch (no more than $28K for a household of 4) and it's 5% Black and 11% Hispanic and 9% Asian. At 234, 6% of students qualify for free lunches and there are 6% Black students, 7% Hispanic and 16% Asian.

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            03.17.10, 08:10 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • And that is better than privates? I can think of many privates that have much better diversity than that.

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              03.17.10, 08:12 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Do you really think this is true? I would be surprised if almost one-tenth of families of attending PS 41 are that poor. How is income verified? Is it just filling out a form? Where do these families live?

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              03.17.10, 08:35 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • ^^^ Perhaps you're counting children of supers of buildings, who often receive free rent in addition to salary? It would be hard for a family to pay rent in the 41 zone on an income of 28K, but a family could live on that if they don't pay rent.

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                03.17.10, 08:39 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • There are old buildings downtown, with people who have lived forever in them - or whose parents and grandparents had lived in them. Not everyone is just moving into the city.

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                  03.17.10, 09:46 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • Sure, there are old buildings in the Village and West Village, but it's rare for one to have families with elementary school children that are paying low rents.

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                    03.18.10, 03:22 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • that's a lie. name a single independent school with more economic diversity than ps41. go ahead. i dare you.

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            03.17.10, 08:12 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Regis is certainly one.

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              03.17.10, 08:18 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • np - Because it's FREE.

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                03.17.10, 08:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • lol. regis is hardly representative. since part of their mission is to educate poor dcs. try again.

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                03.17.10, 08:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • ^^still waiting....

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                  03.17.10, 08:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • Didn't you ask for a single independent school?

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                    03.18.10, 03:34 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • so you are saying that no other private school in the city has more economic diversity than one of the least economically diverse publics? the example you offer is a catholic high school funded by a private donor who stipulated that poor dcs get admissions priority? because if so, this discussion is officially over. you have proven op wrong.

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                      03.18.10, 05:15 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • np - I've seen this discussion before on UB. And I know what somebody is going to say - private schools have multimillionaires at them and therefore they are more diverse economically since public schools don't have multimillionaires.

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              03.17.10, 08:20 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • right. since $200k is poor enough to qualify for fa, i guess that means schools that include families with that as their hhi along with the billionaires must be diverse. please.

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                03.17.10, 08:22 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • My dc is in an independent school, and our hhi is around 55K. We're not the only family like this in the school. We can't afford to live in the PS 41 or the PS 234 zones.

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                  03.18.10, 03:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • Is 10% of your school made up of families whose HHIs are around yours?

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                    03.18.10, 05:37 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • np. 10% of the families would have to make half of what her hhi is in order for it to compare with 41. i really doubt that is the case.

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                      03.18.10, 06:00 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Not a lie. At SHSH, 43% of families are from diverse ethnic backrounds. And the socio-economic diversity is just as strong. DC goes there (and we make big financial sacrifices for it), and we are zoned for 41.

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              03.18.10, 06:33 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • St. Hilda's St. Hugh's is more diverse than that, as is Manhattan Country School.

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          03.18.10, 03:18 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • And its 234, not 243 you MORON!

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        03.17.10, 08:41 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • SO TRUE!

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      03.17.10, 03:40 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • this is what's so annoying. You have ppl who are advocates for NYC publics but what they don't realize is that the majority of the city schools aren't like the West Village, Tribeca, UES schools. These schools, the dcs that attend these schools reflect the areas. For Ex: When a struggling hispanic family who can't afford to live on Charles Street applies for FA to a private you know why..because they can't send their dc to a school like PS 41. Their inner city or poor 'hood most likely has overcrowded, stressed out, failing schools. Who wants that?

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      03.17.10, 03:41 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • are you drunk?

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        03.17.10, 03:44 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • nope just call it like I see it.

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          03.17.10, 03:49 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • you sound drunk. i can't tell what you are seeing or calling.

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            03.17.10, 03:51 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • np; i think you are high on something if you think she is drunk. Too much weed?

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              03.17.10, 03:51 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • nnp. i have no idea what she is trying to say either.

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                03.17.10, 03:53 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • you want it more clearly...the "good city publics" aren't reflecting the CITY completely. They aren't as diverse as many ppl say. The shitty schools are just that shitty and who wants to send their dc there? That's why those who are zoned for crappy schools go elsewhere (like privates: either independ. privates or catholic). The city should put more effort into making all of the schools great instead of leaving it up to the parents because the rich parents will always have the money to help the schools out and the poor parents can only hope

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                  03.17.10, 03:57 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • the good city publics reflect the ZONE they are in. because that is the way the doe has set it up and it arguably makes perfect sense. just as dcs from yonkers are not bussed to chappaqua, dcs from the south bronx are not bussed to ps234. the city does not have the money or the wherewithal to make every school in the city great, sad to say. the parents in the rich zones have both and that is why their schools are better. life is unfair, but that's the way it is. don't slag the parents at the good schools, slag the doe.

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                    03.17.10, 04:00 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • I don't sound drunk..just don't like the way the city publics are run esp. the majority of them.

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              03.17.10, 03:53 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • what do you mean, how they are run? they are run by the doe.

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                03.17.10, 03:54 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • yes I know but they DOE doesn't put any effort in taking a failing or overcrowded school better. The DOE hasn't done a bang up job ever. We (NYC) aren't known for having great publics

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                  03.17.10, 03:58 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It's only the last 5 years that many of those schools you rave about have become good, and that's because of middle class parents who are willing to put the sweat equity into the public schools. In Brooklyn, there are many, many good neighborhood schools improved by middle class families. They are all "diverse". And even the least diverse ones in Manhattan, like 41 or 6, are diverse compared to privates.

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      03.17.10, 03:45 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • the 'diversity' in my dc's private school is manufactured --there are exactly 'two of each'in every class. Two black kids, two asian kids, two adopted kids, two white jewish kids, two white nonjewish kids, two kids with gay parents, two kids with billionaire parents, two kids with famous parents, two kids with single moms. Public school is more homogeneous--but more random. IF there are two black kids it's because they live in the neighborhood, not because a rich white couple adopted a brown kid...

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      03.17.10, 04:18 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ^and if there are TEN black kids in the class it's also because they live in the neighborhood...

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        03.17.10, 04:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • what do u mean manufactured? the class is what it is.

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          03.17.10, 05:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • d'oh! it is what it is because the school chooses who is in it!

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            03.17.10, 05:20 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Manufactured only because if you go with the flow, you end up with segregation. You have to swim upstream to make it diverse. Sorry if that offends you.

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              03.17.10, 07:47 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • no, manufactured because they cherry-pick and keep the numbers where they want them. no private school is "swimming upstream" by graciously offering a spot to an aa hedgie's dc. please.

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                03.17.10, 08:15 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • AA's are diverse, too. So are Asians. There are many people of color in all income brackets. I guess you'd be happy to send dc to go to a zoned school that did not manufacture diversity by bussing kids from segregated schools in the 60's?

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                  03.17.10, 08:24 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • i'm sorry, but giving doa's a pat on the back and "swimming upstream" by letting in a few blacks and asians is offensive to me.

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                    03.17.10, 08:26 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • as opposed to self-segregation where you get public schools of all the same ilk. that's not offensive?

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                      03.18.10, 06:50 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • neither are the privates. they cherry-pick a couple of umc aa's and a couple of "poor" (like, not on food stamps unless they got in through prep for prep) people so they can brag in their promotional literature and sing koom-bye-yah, blah, blah, blah. privates are NOT diverse. at. all.

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      03.17.10, 05:34 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • So, a class with the following mix of ethnic backgrounds is not diverse (this is from my 1st grader's class)? Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Egyptian, Ukrainian, African-American, Filipino, Russian and of course, Caucasian. Oh, okay, so it's a melting pot, but it's not YOUR idea of a melting pot and so therefore, that's not "diverse"?

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      03.17.10, 05:35 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • As private schools would say - too many Asians

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        03.17.10, 08:12 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • so "Asian" is a monolithic group, the members of which do not add "diversity"? That just shows how ridiculous this whole notion of "diversity" is.

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          03.18.10, 03:15 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • well, ok. but the thing about public schools is that they are inclusive and will take anyone in the zone no matter their skin color. if those people happen to be white, so be it, but if they aren't, that's cool, too. privates don't. they limit their numbers of blacks, asians and anyone else. just enough to make everyone feel good about themselves, but no so many white people will get scared. publics also take anyone with learning or behavioral issues. privates, not so much. very poor people are ok as long as they've been vetted by prep for prep, but mostly the people on fa are highly educated and mc by the rest of america's standards. not anyone who isn't really "one of us." i'm not sure why private parents pat themselves on the back for th...

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      03.17.10, 05:42 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ^"diverse" means reflective of the world we live in, the good, the bad and the ugly. privates only take the good, whether their skin is white or brown.

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        03.17.10, 05:44 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Uh, LOL. This is why families move into the WHITE zones, so their kids would not be in a school with a lot of black or Chinese kids. You are kidding yourself. This is why G&T exists, to pacify the white parents.

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        03.17.10, 07:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I don't know where op lives, but the public elementary schools in Riverdale are diverse both ethnically and economically, and pretty good if not fancy.

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      03.17.10, 08:11 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • So what is your point? Does it make you feel better that your private school kid has more blacks and hispanics in his class? And is that why you spend $35K a year to send your kid there - b/c the public school in your area is just too (horrors) white? Give yourself a big pat on the back, you are just so very evolved... Such bs

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      03.17.10, 08:25 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • how would you know how many of the 1500 public schools in the city are racially or socieconomically diverse? have you visited them all? enough to be able to say "one or two" are actually diverse?

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      03.17.10, 08:29 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • after touring PS89 and seeing the lack of diversity we decided to send our dd to HM.

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      03.18.10, 03:58 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • personally, i'd rather dc go to a school that promotes the idea that every child is "good enough" to get a good education whether they are green or purple than to one that says only certain dcs are. i'd rather not have my dc taught that particular value.

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        03.18.10, 05:20 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • YOU are the one who chose to live in the non-diverse community of Battery Park City. If you really think that diversity is important in your dc's life, I would think that you would want to live in another neighborhood. BTW - PS 89 is only 64% white (17% Asian, 11% Hispanic, 7% black).

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        03.18.10, 05:36 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • ^^^I doubt that the HM lower school is only 64% white.

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          03.18.10, 05:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • well we live there for other reasons than the diversity (safe, clean, playgrounds etc). We do want our dd to be surrounded my more diversity than was evident when i toured. Those stats didnt represent what I saw in the classroom. I dont know why you are getting so upset when i tell you I value diversity enough to pay for it.

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          03.18.10, 05:49 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • you should have looked up the actual stats, not based your assumption on glimpsing a classroom. the FACT is that 89 is 64% white and HM is 75% white. in any case, stop spreading the misinformation. you are sending your dc to an independent school that is less diverse than your zoned school.

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            03.18.10, 05:54 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • please calm down and go and take a tour of the school (and speak to current parents) to see if you think that 64% number is accurate. I don't.

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              03.18.10, 06:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • we've been back to de facto segregation for some time now. this is hardly "news"

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      03.18.10, 05:23 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • In our local G&T class we have a couple of Hispanic kids, one AA child, 5 Asian kids and a lot of white kids with families from different countries of origin: German, French, Russian, Argentinean, and Irish etc. Additionally parent’s occupations vary from college professors, doctors, scientists, musician, DA, teachers, engineers, construction guy... We are very happy and don't feel like outsiders when we speak a home language with our dc because half the other kids do also. Perhaps in the US diversity is mostly seen in terms of color but to us our class seems diverse with a lot of really great families and kids.

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      03.18.10, 05:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • This is true of our citywide G&T class, too - 20% black, also Latino and Asian kids and on top of that, I'd guess that 80% of the class speaks a second or third language at home. And there is much, much more socioeconomic diversity than I saw in private preschool.

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        03.18.10, 05:58 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ITA; citywide school.

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        03.18.10, 07:13 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Not in NYC - my schools were not diverse, because where I lived was not diverse. My husband went to a private school in a nearby area and had more diversity. That being said, does it really matter? I grew up in a place that was 99% white, but I was friends with the few who werent. I know people of all races now. I dated someone once who was a different race. The lack of diversity at my elementary, middle, and high schools did not mean that I'm unable, as an adult, to treat people equally. If anything, I don't trust an environment with a very clear percentage division of X # of white, X# of black, etc etc. Admittedly not in NYC involved in this scene, so I don't understand from that point of view, but still ...

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      03.18.10, 07:27 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]Ahh. Mothers on the UES are so toxic. It's so competitive. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

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    03.18.10, 08:39 AM [ Flag ]
    • Just the toxic moms are toxic.

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      03.18.10, 08:40 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • What are we doing?

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      03.18.10, 08:41 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I can't take this constant talk about tt schools, gossiping about other dc's parents in preschool. In Europe mothers will get together in the Park and just hang out and enjoy life but here I feel it's constant competition, trying to get ahead etc.

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        03.18.10, 08:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • You need to find hipper UES moms. What PS are you at?

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          03.18.10, 08:46 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • My cousins in Europe are worse. They try to get their 2 yo's into TT nursery schools and the 2yo's wear uniforms. Add class anxiety (nobility stuff) into the mix.

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          03.18.10, 08:50 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • You are not talking about continental Europe then.

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            03.18.10, 08:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • NP: All my in laws live in Paris and it is worse there.

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              03.18.10, 08:55 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • Interesting. Britain is like that as well. Oh well, I am from Sweden and we are much more relaxed.

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                03.18.10, 08:58 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • maybe, but my cousins in Germany try very hard to one-up each other and me about who is the most eco-friendly, etc. You mean your baby sling isn't organic cotton?!?!? It's just as annoying.

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                  03.18.10, 09:02 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • But they have good public schools in Germany so they have to find something else to compete over.

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                    03.18.10, 09:10 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • true! Since homeschooling is illegal, they don't (really) have that option to compete over.

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                      03.18.10, 09:17 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • Germany came in kind of low on the international student assessment.

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                      03.18.10, 09:24 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                      • My friends in Germany all graduated from public high schools several years ago. They were much much smarter than my American classmates at non-NYC private schools. It is possible the education has decreased over the years.

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                        03.18.10, 09:27 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • Oh, US is still below Germany but that's not saying much.

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                          03.18.10, 09:31 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • My friends spoke 5 languages. I was impressed with that alone. LOL I'd like to see a steady graduation rate of bilingual students in the US. Not to mention math and science. I have my 2 yo in science classes hoping he will fall in love with it. :)

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                          03.18.10, 09:41 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • did you live in the UK? I only ask because it's where I'm from and I've personally never met anyone like this, I clearly move in the wrong sort of circles. All the mothers i knew just hung out in the parks and chatted. Pretty much like the mothers i've met now living in Brooklyn.

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                  03.18.10, 11:00 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • NNP I live in Paris and it is just the same as UES in the nice neighborhoods here

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                03.18.10, 03:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • My dd is in an UES pre-school, but we live on the UWS. It is torture for me, but I survive. I try to be polite to everyone, but not engage in chit chat. And I try not to cry in front of the other moms no matter how hurtful their comments are.

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          03.18.10, 08:50 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • What do they say to you that can make you cry?

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            03.18.10, 10:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Some of the other moms called me a whore. They constantly talk about my failed marriage, my career, and the fact that I became pregnant with #2 out of wedlock. Some things are said to my face, other times I just see or overhear whispering. One woman told me what others had said behind my back. I think she was just trying to prepare me for when it finally made it back to me, but it was still hurtful.

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              03.18.10, 01:18 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • Seriously? They call you a whore? This is hard to believe. You're talking about UES, not puritanical paradise. Are you sure you aren't paranoid?

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                03.18.10, 03:12 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • UES is just its own BIZARRO-WORLD

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      03.18.10, 08:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Where is all this happening? I live on E 84th Street, have a few close friends in the area and am chatty with probably 20 or more women at school (public). There are a few nuts who I avoid when I can and smile and nod at when I can't. What's so weird? We did private nursery school btw and didn't have any issues there at all.

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        03.18.10, 08:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • as a native NYer the UES has always had this entitled attitude toward ppl that aren't considered one of them (like me). I went to school on the UES and hated the area. I would live anywhere in the city but couldn't pay me to live on the UES

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          03.18.10, 09:12 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • It's true but I've actually met some sweeties up there; Transplants to NY sometimes listen to realtors and end up in bizarre areas. As a funny aside, I was up by Gracie with my child when she was about 15 mos old.She'd just begun toddling and yet, was a very adept conversationalist(it was just her thing).Within minutes, there were about 3 moms striking up chats about pre-schools,'giftedness',blahblahblah and what I should be thinking about for pre-k. I segued into how my top priority was getting us out of the shelter and getting myself rehabbed from my yearslong crack habit. It was an amazingly fun time! They scattered ever so indiscretely.

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        03.18.10, 09:10 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • yes, it's true. so think hard about whether you want to send dc to one of those ues schools.

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      03.18.10, 08:50 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Send your dcs to public school. Those mothers are waaaay more hands off.

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      03.18.10, 09:22 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Oh come one, each neighborhood is awful and hilarious in its own way. UES is no worse.

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      03.18.10, 10:25 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Honestly, I think Manhattan has a disproportionate number of neurotic, striving, competetive people - some are moms on the UES. Deal with it or leave. I've lived here my whole life and I'm the least neurotic, striving or competetive person I know and I cope :)

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      03.18.10, 10:29 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Agree. my dh is my from the midwest and he said that he didn't get Woody Allen until he moved to NY and thought, "oh, now I get it!" they are all neurotic here. I am from here and i agree.

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        03.18.10, 11:59 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I bet I'm less competitive than you!

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        03.18.10, 12:58 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Lived on the UES for too many years. The Preschool process did me in, and we ended up choosing a school in another neighborhood just so we had a good excuse to leave (as though our unhappiness here weren't enough). Moms up here are complete bitches.

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      03.18.10, 10:47 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I think there might be a few different subsets of people. There are the Diller Quaille people and the people who stress about going to St. Maartin with the kids (even though the nanny is coming) but we go to a low-key preschool and the people are really nice and not that competitive. Many of them went to UB tt colleges after public school and plan to send their kids to public. I grew up in a cheesy NJ suburb and people were SO competitive about college, cars, purses...

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      03.18.10, 10:54 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • OP - Diller Quaille. Hated it. Mothers there were the worst subset of the UES. My dd took one class there and then never again. Seems more a social club than dc learning about music.

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        03.18.10, 11:05 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • OR. Yes, it wasn't my scene. We go to the concerts on weekends. Two times ago there really was a woman at Yura psyching out the other Mom about getting into Episcopal (I think... they didn't name names). Then the Mom who seemed pretty normal was getting stressed. But Ruppert Playground isn't like that.

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          03.18.10, 11:09 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I live on the UES and must say that there are some really nice and sweet moms who actually say "hello" and smile to other kids. Re: Diller - I, too, absolutely HATED it. We have endured one semester there and wanted to leave after the 3rd class, but they wouldn't give a refund of any sort. No wonder they don't offer trials! I think the early childhood program is for remedial children.

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          03.18.10, 05:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Curious...which one? My in-laws just moved to an "exclusive" suburb and the people there are just exhausting. I get looked over walking to the bathroom at a restaurant. Shoes, bags, etc.

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        03.18.10, 11:07 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I'm not an UES mom, but there are toxic people everywhere. and there are plenty of nice people everywhere. I know plenty of very nice UES moms.

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      03.18.10, 12:25 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I live on the UES and I just exist outside of that realm. My dcs go to a nonUES private. There are quite a few nice, normal people, moms included, and I just ignore all the toxic, crazy competitive ones. After awhile you stop noticing them at all.

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      03.18.10, 12:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • My kids are at what this board considers a high maintenance, UES TT preschool. But the parents are really, really nice. Sure, there are a few pills but if you steer clear of them and don't engage you can find great people anywhere. I probably attract more "normal" friends because I don't get all caught up in the nonsense. Just disengage and ignore. Or kill with kindness.

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      03.18.10, 12:51 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Oh, and I think Diller Quaille and the scene at Yura are brutal.

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        03.18.10, 12:56 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • np - I live on the UWS but dc goes to Hunter so I'm at Yura at times. Love their food. And, quite frankly, I also love observing the scene there. I've picked up hints on the best horse camps for dcs "out east" (not that I'm ever "out east"). And I just love taking note of the fashions.

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          03.18.10, 01:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • There is nothing and I mean NOTHING more invaluable than getting free horse camp tips while nibbling on a cupcake at Yura! ;) You might also learn which hotels are "over" in St. Barth's and Anguilla, where to get the best riding boots for everyday wear (E.Vogel, apparently) or whether Beaver Creek or Steamboat Springs has a better ski school for kids. Honestly, you can't buy this kind of scintillating insight!

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            03.18.10, 02:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • nnp; really? I've been to Yura a few times with dc who goes to a school nearby and never heard anything like that. but I'm just busy getting the food and fighting the crowds. I usually go to Jackson Hole, though.

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              03.18.10, 03:25 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • np I hate Jackson Hole. Their burgers are the worst in town, imo. Can't believe the chain survives.

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                03.18.10, 03:33 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • ita on the burgers but you get a table there and you can grab a quick bite. Yura - forget about sitting down.

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                  03.18.10, 04:46 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • I live right between Yura and Jackson Hole and have missed all of this...

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                03.18.10, 06:16 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • She's making it up. I live around there and spend most of my day in the neighborhood. Have NEVER seen or heard anything like this.

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                  03.18.10, 06:49 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • LOL. I live in the neighborhood and send my dc to nearby tt private. I wear yoga pants (cheap Land's End ones) to Yura. Rarely see anyone wearing anything more spectacular than that--nor are they discussing horse camps or anything else loudly enough for me to hear. Guess I'm going at the wrong time of day.

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            03.18.10, 02:28 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • wait, are you me? I live right next to Yura and have never noticed anything... but then these types of moms are invisible to me. I've just stopped noticing them.

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              03.18.10, 06:17 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • OMG, I love observing the scene at Yura, the preppie version of a watering hole on the Serengetti. Think we need to start going on group safaris there :)

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            03.18.10, 02:39 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I don't get this at all. I grew up on the UES and DH amd I, and our kids all go to schools that people on this board deem as desirable as they come. I've seen some obnoxiousness, I guess, but I honestly think that if you're nice and a cool person you'll be met with 90% open arms everywhere. This includes Yura, playgrounds, school etc. We don't have a lot of money, no one has anything to gain by being nice to me and I honestly think the problem must be you! Maybe you're just shy, socially awkward or have a chip on your shoulder

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      03.18.10, 04:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Please don't generalize. There are many amazing people on the UES. Yes, sometimes the playground can get a bit clickish and I've only come across one mother repeatedly who refuses to say hello, but there are so many moms who are really nice and will help your kid while you're trying to pull out a snack or kick a ball or balloon back to your child if it gets thrown out of an area. Thanks UES moms!!!!

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      03.18.10, 05:57 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • UES mom here: Midwest transport and YES I have noticed this, BUT there arer some really wonderful people around here too. Been here almost a year and never want to leave. well, should never say never, but I really love it. I general say to myself about the moms who are smug and asses "They obviously hate their lives or at least a component of it, to be so miserable and focus so much energy on name brands and 'keeping up with the Joneses'" I wouldnt trade my dh making more money for him working more money. YES more money would be great, BUT I wont trade time with him for it. Also, those bitchy women keep me humble!

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      03.18.10, 06:05 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ^^woah spelling!! Opps. I meant trade more money for more hours... sorry, not paying attention..

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        03.18.10, 06:14 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • UES mom here; you need to find new UES friends. I do not seem to find the toxic UES moms in my circle.

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      03.18.10, 06:39 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
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