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When people post against gay marriage it seriously makes me want to cry. I have one son who I think is gay and I'm bleeding for him already. If he is gay (he's only 9 now) why shouldn't he be able to fall in love, have children and be in a loving, committed relationship like everyone else? Thank god he has us as parents but I still think that if there is a god, people who would deny this to any person should and will go to hell.
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You know what? Forget all these people. I'm a 38 yr old, straight mother of two small children and I think much of this bigotry will die out by the time your son is ready to fall in love, gay or not. The generation behind us just does not, thankfully, have this kind of intolerant attitude to the same degree. I have an 18 yr old half sister and she and all of her friends don't get how 'our' generation can be so phobic, so anti-civil rights for all. And yes, this means marriage. Ignore these mean, intolerant people. Good luck to you and your beautiful son. With a wonderful mom like you, he will do just fine.
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No one is denying him the right to fall in love or be in a loving "committed" relationship. And you shouldn't bleed for him. You should embrace his individuality and personality. Why is this a reason to be sad? Everybody has burdens and hardships. Do you think every AA parent is sad for their dc?
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But open to waaaaaaay more blatant and subtle discrimination (no AA btw). And their difference is right there for the world to see, not discover. Who are you kidding. Except for marriage what rights don't gays have? Really getting so tired of this gays-as-victims chant.
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again. a black person has BLACK SKIN. you walk into a store, its as if you are wearing a sign that says "I AM BLACK." some people ignore the sign, others (racists with "bad vision") translate that as "I AM A MUGGER, RAPPER, CARRYING A GUN, AND WATCH OUT, I AM LOW CLASS." still. today. 2009. New York. I am not talking KKK Alabama here. that doesnt happen to Gay people. yes there are bigots. but IT IS NOT OUTWARDLY APPARENT.
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me too. I am not gay, and I am as waspy white as they get. I am anti-affirmative action. but PLEASE dont go comparing "discrimination" against gay people to discrimination against black people!!! one is blatant. and yes, whether we call ourselves all liberal and civilized or not, people do still discriminate, I see it all the time. I see black people walk into fancy stores, and the shopkeepers DO treat them differently. remember the Oprah/Hermes/Paris saga a few years ago? No, that doesnt happen to Gay people, because what makes them different (and might make other judgemental people look down upon them, righr or wrong) is not outwardly apparent. this argument is laughable.
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I think marriage should be a religous ceremony. Religions could decide who they would and wouldn't marry. Government should have nothing to do with it. If we want to provide some legal rights for commit couples they should have a civil union -- gay and straight.
[ Reply | Options ]ITA. I am the Jewish OP from those threads, who everyone thinks is so anti gay people. Civil unions=great. equal legal rights (insurance and all that) = great. MARRIAGE should be a religious ceremony outside the courts jurisdiction.
[ Reply | Options ]Yes, and then please rewrite every single law that refers to marriage to include civil unions. That's what gays want. They want to have the same rights as a married couple w/o the need to spend a lot of money on attorneys just to get those. They want one legal certificate that shows them they are legally "married" and very entity in this country should accept it.
[ Reply | Options ]Every government entity should. Why should tax laws car if the two "married" people are of opposite genders?
[ Reply | Options ]Exactly. As long as every single law that is about rights for married couples does not include civil unions the easiest way around this is to just give gay couples a marriage certificate. That's the easiest way out of the legal mess civil unions bring.
[ Reply | Options ]But the problem is the government co-opted the name of a religious ceremony. And because of that the "easy way" here is through a mine field. I, for one, am ok with taking the slightly longer route. The one that circumvents the minefield and arrives at the other side safe and sound.
[ Reply | Options ]Why is it so hard to accept that the meaning of a word changes over the course of time? There are so many other things that changed their meaning but none of these things ever brought so much controversy. It is discriminating.
[ Reply | Options ]OK. So your argument is that the meaning behind words changes and doesn't really matter that much... I go back to my original point. Call the legal part a Civil Union, let everyone else call it whatever the hell they want and be friggin' done with it. At least this way we can ensure gay couples get the rights/protections they need.
[ Reply | Options ]Sure. Whatever is needed to make this all happen. It's just a matter of time anyway.
[ Reply | Options ]I'm not gay so I won't pretend to know the feelings of the gay community (although in truth, can any one person pretend to speak for a whole community? but I digress) BUT if I was gay, the issue to me would be getting the protection and rights. I don't think I'd give a shit what the state called my union. Now I might care about my church and all that but that is a non-issue here anyway.
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was thinking the same thing. It scares me that I will have to explain to my DS why "[ ] has two daddies," which is particularly why we chose more conservative schools for our kids.
[ Reply | Options ]I find kids have no problem with it. We have a lot of families with gay parents at our school. They accept it in the same way they accept that some kids live with just one parent, or are being raised by a grandparent etc. You explain it simply and answer questions as they come just like other things. I find it best not to instill a judgment about these sort of things in my kids because I don't want them to look down on others for these sort of things.
[ Reply | Options ]SO, let me summarize you. You want the world revolve around you so you have not much explaining to do to your children. Right.
[ Reply | Options ]no. I want my childrens world to revolve around values and the value system we wish to bring them up with. included in that is the fact that homosexuality is wrong, plain and simple. living with a grandparent isnt wrong. nor is living with one parent (we are not catholic) as sad as that might sometimes be.
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right. our values. our money. our kids. our choice of conservative private school that is on the same page as us.
[ Reply | Options ]YOUR values do not instruct others what to do. So, your wish that there are no gay relationships is bogus.
[ Reply | Options ]but my wish to say that my kids wont have playdates with kids who have 2 daddies, isnt bogus, and hence, I chose schools carefully. and found one that fits our value system. no matter how 'flawed' it might be. we are religious and our religion doent allow for homosexuality, which is a sin.
[ Reply | Options ]LOL--cannot wait to see how many of your kids turn out to be gay and then you can figure out how your religion "doesn't allow" that. It apparently allows total ignorance and foolishness.
[ Reply | Options ]you seriously think people cant make choices in ilfe? some are harder than others. someone with the propensity to become an alcoholic can CHOOSE to control when they drink and what they drink. they can join AA. hell, there are even drugs they can take to help control their urges. yes. if one of my kids said they were "gay" or had gay tendencies, we would fix their problem. end of story
[ Reply | Options ]Jesus was the original liberal, IMHO. Honestly, I don't understand how a bunch of GOP'ers have co-opted the radical who stood with the poor, the outcast, the stranger, the criminal the sick, the unhappy...and now these folks who claim to love him are picketing Nancy Pelosi's office so that people don't get decent health care, voting for the death penalty and for a stupid, pointless war.
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I think that is great. I am bringing up my child with a moral code as well. But I don't for one second wish that other peoples moral codes weren't in the world too. I don't fear explaining to my child this is what we believe - not everyone believes the things we do. Our faith is strong and our "code" secure enogh to allow our children to see that not everyone lives/believes/thinks as we do and that's OK.
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That seriously scares you?? I hope you don't live in New York. Some of DC (5)'s best friends have had 2 dads or 2 moms. What's hard about "sometimes 2 moms love eachother, or 2 dads love eachother, instead of a mom and a dad, and they also have families"? Very easy for my dc to understand.
[ Reply | Options ]I wholeheartedly agree with you. I choose a Christian private school for my daughter for the same reason last year. This year we choose homeschool. I live right here on the UWS and wouldn't let my dd have a playdate at a home with parents of the same sex either. Yes I would explain, when the time is right what homosexuality is but I would NOT be explaining it in the context of acceptable behavior. I would be calling it the sin it is. I have had many gay relatives and friends and still do. They ALL know I think it is a sin as I don't mince words. I don't treat them any differently because of my beliefs.
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He's waaaaay too young for you to think he's gay. and he can have a loving relationship without all this make-believe family stuff. If he wants children he should go find a woman
[ Reply | Options ]Do you have any close gay friends? While I certainly wouldn't wish my ds to be gay it isn't the end of the world. Gay friends could be honest with you about day to day life and discrimination.
[ Reply | Options ]Unlike anybody else who is completely insensitive, unknowledgable or intelligent enough to offer any helpful insight or support? This is where gays lose credibility. They continually claim discrimination as their sole domain and that the ability to overcome or deal with it is only theirs to teach. Again, everybody has burdens and discriminations to deal with.
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I think its laughable that you bring God into this equation when like seriously, you kinda know what God says about homosexuality. Sorry, just stating the facts. right there in leviticus.
[ Reply | Options ]If God is against homosexuality, why did God create them? I'm not religious at all and not against homosexuality.
[ Reply | Options ]OMG. If God is against murderers, why did he create them? I AM NOT EQUATING THE TWO SO DONT START TELLING ME I AM EIFFEL TOWER/DOLPHIN MOM. IM NOT. but you can make that argument about any "sin." why do good things happen to bad people. why do bad things happen to good people. why do we die. come on.
[ Reply | Options ]What you're saying is as if homosexuals have a choice and also assume it is a sin to be a homosexual. Murders are not born to be murderers like homosexuals are born biologically attracted to the same sex. Your logic is completely flawed.
[ Reply | Options ]no, my logic is not flawed, your scientific knowledge is not up to date: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2004/12/65990 http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-11/italian-court-reduces-murderers-sentence-due-presence-violence-linked-gene http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1004083,00.html
[ Reply | Options ]and by the way, I completed 4 years of post-college medical education, and a hellish residency. so dont pretend to tell me that because you feel bad for your gay neighbor, you know more about "human biology" than all the neurologists and psychiatrists out there do.
[ Reply | Options ]If all the neurologists and psychiatrists out there know about "human biology" so well, why do we have all these problems? Everything must be crystal clear to them and they must know all the solutions to the problems!
[ Reply | Options ]you are deliberately missing my point. which is: you can attribute ANYTHING to being "biologically wired" like that. alcoholism right? does that mean if you kill 5 people on the taconic because alcoholism IS A DISEASE just like diabetes, its ok, because the poor mom was sick? being genetically wired for xy or z doesnt "excuse" you.
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Yup, right there with slavery and stonings (pro) and shrimp cocktail (against). Anyone who claims to read the OT literally is either an idiot or the world's biggest hypocrite.
[ Reply | Options ]yea. right up there with "thou shalt not kill." where do you draw the line? I believe in capital punishment. those laws were enforced thousands of years ago, and are not today, because we have a different form of gov't. the bibles view of "slavery" is quite different than america's (specific mention of the fact that "slaves" must be released after 7 years, must be fed before yourself and your family, and if you have one pillow, it MUST go to your "slave" not you). you better bet ive never had a shrimp cocktail.
[ Reply | Options ]ohhhhh....so the slavery in the Bible was OK because they had nice pillows and were freed after seven years? And remind me what we should do with the fornicators and adulterers--I mean, I hope you're not letting your kids know anybody who's divorced or having sex before marriage. You wouldn't want them to think that's NORMAL would you?
[ Reply | Options ]Don't forget never sleeping next to a menstruating female! Or trimming your beard at the wrong time! This picking and choosing of "sins" is preposterous. Why would people be made to be attracted to the same sex if it were not biological? All other species do this, too. Are they "sinning" as well. Humans are so incredibly strange.
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I think the fact that you think other people should or will go to hell for their beliefs, which are dictated by THEIR religion is unfair. I have friends who are gay. I dont see a problem with civil unions. But that doesnt mean that to me, religiously, homosexuality is a huuuge sin. I would never, ever, say that out loud to anyone, gay or straight. But my religious friends all share my beliefs.
[ Reply | Options ]I'm so sorry. I wish I had something wise and comforting to say but I don't. The only thing I can come up with is that your son is young so hopefully things will be better by the time that he realizes it and, by the time he is an adult, he might very well be allowed to marry. I see that happening within my lifetime and certainly within his. I also agree 100% with the people who said that the government should hand out contracts for civil unions to everyone and religions can make up their own rules about marriage. (And btw, I'm an atheist but I can't understand how people think it makes sense that their God, who so loving and wonderful and marvelous, carries this hatred for 10% of his children. But then again, religion isn't so much on board with rationality).
[ Reply | Options ]DH here. 9 years is too early for you as a parent to tell. I am very sure my parents were afraid I was guy up to the day I told them I was about to marry a woman.
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Hi, I am 100% for the same rights for hetero couples and gay couples (social security, income tax filing, etc). I also believe that a church should have the right to deny to perform a religious ceremony for same sex couples. So here is the rub - how do we write the law so that same sex couples can't turn around and sue the church for discrimination if they refuse to perform the ceremony? I'm sure there is a way - I'm not an attorney - but as long as religious institutions are protected I say get on with it. And for you OP, by the time your child falls in love and wants to get married, I am 99.9% certain this will be solved and all will be well.
[ Reply | Options ]Why would they be able to sue a church? Nobody has a right to a religious ceremony. I can't sue the catholic church for refusing to marry me because I'm divorced. They have their rules and that's OK.
[ Reply | Options ]I actually think there have been lawsuits against churches for refusing to marry an interracial couple. Being divorced is not the same thing.
[ Reply | Options ]I agree with OR -- churches are not democracies. Women can't become Catholic priests. They can discriminate in any way they want.
[ Reply | Options ]OR - as long as churches are legally allowded to deny same sex marriage ceremony - I have no problems. I think the divorce (you can get married, you just have to have previous marriage annuled) and female priest are not the same issue. But why argue - I think we are all on the same side. Yea for equal rights, let the church decide for themselves.
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Don't worry, he will be able to do all those things, since laws are becoming more enlightened. I'm Jewish, and know there's a world full of people who hate me, but as long as not everyone does and I have my civil rights, I'm not focussing on those other people. Thank god he has you, yes, but he'll have other friends and supporters. Teach him how to focus on those, the best thing you can do for him. PS I love many gay, life-long friends, though I'm straight. Would go for the mat for them.
[ Reply | Options ]NP: I agree - it's horrible. I only hope that I don't know any of those people in real life. And for the responder said "everyone has their hardships!" - of course they do - but why have hardships that are entirely unavoidable? If your son is gay, he'll certainly have hardships in life apart from his sexuality. There's just no good reason to make gayness one of the hardships. Horrible.
[ Reply | Options ]Yes, but who says they're as bad as OP imagines? Don't you know happy gay people? I know plenty, and there are lots of other groups who are subject to discrimination. The happiest gay people I know, I think, have parents who love and accept them. So this child is on the right track, as long as mom can relax.
[ Reply | Options ]I know many happy gay people now. The vast majority of them had a draining multi-year adjustment period of trying to come to grips with their sexuality, and I am quite certain that I have no clue about their internal battles as they came to realize that they will be treated as second-class citizens by some portion of the population for the rest of their lives.
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I hope things will be better politically by the time your ds is grown, whether or not he is gay. Right now I really feel for my gay friends in their twenties and thirties, who should have the option of getting married and having children -- its terrible that they have to deal with all this hatred and ignorance.
[ Reply | Options ]I hear you. I don't have any reason to think that either of my dc are/will be gay, but I have occasionally thought about it and would be sad- not for myself, but for the difficulties they'll have if they are. I also wish we could just all get along, love who we want to love & get a paper decree if we want one. These days marriage is pretty darn disposable even for hetero couples so I don't see what the big deal is, but if a gay couple wants to declare themselves to each other then I say who are we to deny them their commitment?
[ Reply | Options ]First of all there is a God and for the record God made man and them woman to be together. The Bible talked about a man lying down with another man as a sin so I highly doubt that people who try to prevent it will go to hell, since the Bible does not condone it either. The Bible actually speaks of it as "the end of time." Christians don't hate anybody but we believe that gay/lesbian is the work of the devil, convincing people that they are somehow different than God made them. The only goal the devil has is to destroy the way God wants things to be and this is one way he does it. Before you post about God and hell I would pick up a Bible and read it. I won't be coming back on to see the responses b/c I am sure they will be negative, I am just telling you this so you know.
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nnp: i was a religion major. i translated the new testament from greek, and spent countless hours studying the old testament too. i don't understand how anyone who knows anything about how the bible was compiled could take it literally, and it truly disturbs me that people who claim to base their life on its teachings usually have such a shallow understanding of biblical history. i also think it is interesting that people like OR gloss over many of the crazy things while retaining a few convenient ones.
[ Reply | Options ]this always amazes me too. I find fundamentalists usually have a very slim grasp of history. Never forget one (who taught at a fund. school)who told me that the end of the world was coming because AIDS was killing so many. I said I thought that the Black Plague had been much more devastating to Europe since it wiped out 1/4 to 1/3 of the population. She'd never heard of it.
[ Reply | Options ]I minored in relgion as well, and I do take pretty much everything in the bible literally. different strokes for different folks. all that stuff about sabbath? check. all that no pig crap? yup. even the no sex when you have your period.
[ Reply | Options ]np: even though many books that could have easily made it into the bible, but didn't by chance, ended up as apocrypha? what ended up in the bible was due in large part to chance and politics. it's hard for me to understand how you, understanding that, can take the content of the books that made it in literally. not trying to flame, i just honestly don't get it. and there are so many strange dietary things in there i'm sure that you don't do!
[ Reply | Options ]NNP: do you eat sea creatures without fins or scales (ie shellfish or calamari)? do you make sure that your "clean" meat never shares a grill or cooking utensils with "unclean" meats, even when eating out? Do you wear clothes made of more than one fabric? Do you cut your hair or shave? Do you believe that adulterers should be put to death? And that wizards should be stoned to death?
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I used to think the intelligence level on this board was higher than most places, but I've changed my mind after reading so many small-minded posts on both politics and gay marriage.
[ Reply | Options ]Before the boards went national a few years ago - it was more intel. Now it's just a bunch of uninformed blow hards with faux outrage at all the wrong crap. Makes me sad for my kids and the America they will inherit.
[ Reply | Options ]It's mostly a bunch of uninformed, unintelligent, bible thumping losers who have spent so much time locked up in church since no one else will have them that they don't realize that they're brainwashed members of a cult. They spend all their energies hating others because they're nothing. There's nothing inside which is why they cling to such a religion of hate and exclusion in the first place. They hate themselves and they manage that by finding people they're threatened by to discriminate against. People the world over laugh at them and they have no idea!
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You have bigger problems than thinking your son is gay. Saying if there is a God. I would be more concerned about that if I were you.
[ Reply | Options ]You are so melodramatic. If you son is gay (and OMG nice job deciding that for him already) he can adopt children even if he isn't "married" and he can still fall in love - I believe most of us fall in love before marriage and he can be in a loving relationship just like everyone else.
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