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Religious UBers: where is God when little girls and boys are getting raped and sodomized for years on end in Missouri?
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I thought this was for folks who religiously UBed - like a trick question only folks who've been here a lot would get
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What?? YES! It's been on the news for about a week now: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/20/missouri.family.sex.abuse/index.html
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Good grief, I am not religious at all (atheist in fact), but could your post be any more baiting?
[ Reply | Options ]OP: it's an honest question. There are people out there who are very passionate about their religion and I'm curious how they work this one out in their minds...
[ Reply | Options ]i guess, but wow, so hostile. you can't blame "religious people" in general for this sort of thing.
[ Reply | Options ]OP: what do you mean hostile and how is this blaming anyone? To repeat: I'm interested in hearing how they work this out in their minds
[ Reply | Options ]i think it's the tone of your original post. the question is a good one, and worth discussion, but the tone struck me as hostile. maybe it's just me, though.
[ Reply | Options ]I agree. I'm 'religious' (I don't even like that word) and I didn't want to touch this post with a ten-foot pole. You sound like you've already made up your mind and just want to slam people who believe in God. If you're interested in a genuine, open-minded debate, that is one thing. But from what you just posted about 'working it out in their minds' it sounds like you really can people who can possibly believe in God in an evil world.
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I saw that news story, and it is pretty out there. Perhaps these things really happened. But there is a good chance that they did not. Remember the case of rampant sexual abuse in a daycare center in CA... that got tons of media attention, despite having not actually occurred? Innocent until proven guilty. I don't think that it makes sense to question God every time you hear a wild story in the news.
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the trial for mankind will commence as soon as a jury can be empanelled. please stand by.
[ Reply | Options ]There is a great trilogy by James Morrow, Towing Jehovah is first and it is about God dying and his giant corpse falls to earth. (The Vatican hires a Joseph Hazelwood type character to take a super tanker and tow the corpse to an Arctic Tomb.) Then in the second book Blameless in Abedon, a country lawyer puts the corpse on trial at the Hague for crimes against humanity. If you can suspend disbelief, it is a great read. I gave the first one to a Rabbi friend and he loved it. (http://www.amazon.com/Towing-Jehovah-Harvest-James-Morrow/dp/0156002108/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258989981&sr=8-1)
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big words and even bigger concept coming from someone who can't back it up. better hope you are right when the end comes, otherwise you've made an infinite mistake. i'm always curious by people who are so black and white when it comes to God...after all, what makes you the authority on the Almighty?
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God gives us free will because he desires a loving relationship with us that we freely choose. Also without free will, so much of the beauty of honorable, decent human behavior would be lost. Yet, because humanity is flawed and often deeply broken, we use that free will to make hurtful and sometimes horrific decisions. As much as we think our hearts are broken by the wicked crimes people commit, God's heart is infinitely more broken. Although God offers forgiveness and redemption for those who seek it, those who commit these crimes and do not repent will face judgment far greater than any we can imagine. Just because God does not make all of us souless robots who always do good does not mean that He abandons us when awful things occur; for those who call upon Him, He can offer healing and comfort and strength we never knew we had.
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So, why does God allow innocent children to drown in a tsunami or get crushed in an earthquake?
[ Reply | Options ]As Christians, we do our best to indicate some of the reasons why God permits evil in the world (free will, natural law, soul-making); but we have finite minds and will never fully understand God's justifications. Corrie Ten Boom, a Dutch Christian whose family hid Jews during WWII, lost seven family members including her father and sister in a concentration camp. She often quoted this poem about God's love exceeding all suffering and evil:
[ Reply | Options ]My life is but a weaving between my Lord and me. I cannot choose the colors, He worketh steadily. Oft times he weaveth sorrow, and I in foolish pride, Forget He sees the upper, and I the underside. Not till the looms are silent and the shuttles cease to fly, Will God unroll the canvas and explain the reason why The dark threads are as needful in the Weaver’s skillful hand As the threads of gold and silver in the pattern He has planned. Author Unknown
[ Reply | Options ]Right, so you have no idea. We will "never fully understand God's justifications". If I applied your lack of intellectual rigor to the world, I could believe in anything I wanted. I'm afraid it's just not remotely credible that an omnipotent, omniscient, supremely benevolent being exists.
[ Reply | Options ]Some would argue that acknowledging the limits of moral knowledge constitutes intellectual courage rather than laziness. Perhaps arrogance is thinking that, just because our minds cannot conceive of something's (or someone's) plausibility, it cannot exist. If God does exist, I would guess that His character and ways would far exceed our mind's ability to comprehend them. At the end of the day, horrible things are still happening in the world and despite our struggle to explain why, broken people still need our love and care.
[ Reply | Options ]The "human mind is too puny" argument can be used to justify ANYTHING. Me: "This doesn't make any sense." You: "Ah, human intellect is flawed. Believe it anyway." This is bad, lazy thinking, however you look at it. The problem of evil is a very strong argument against God's existence, and I'm afraid you can't rebut it by saying God is mysterious. You COULD rebut it by claiming that God is either NOT omnipotent, or NOT omniscient, or NOT supremely benevolent. That would work as a rebuttal. Your above comment does not. (And yes, people need love and care, but that has nothing to do with this conversation.)
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God was still with Jesus when he was crucified and died. The message of Christianity is that God is always with you, no matter how horrifying or humiliating your circumstances. This tenant of Christianity brings me great personal comfort. Those dear children are loved.
[ Reply | Options ]Then what good does it do one if God is with you even during suffering? Why believe in God if God does not help you in your hour of need?
[ Reply | Options ]Having gone through personal suffering I know that it can be a new door opening to a new life, enlightenment, and a closer relationship with God through complete trust and forgiveness. An even that brings horrible suffering can sometimes be a major turning point that either brings a person closer to God or far away.
[ Reply | Options ]np: I'm an agnostic but I can't help but wonder, why do you assume that the worst you can imagine is the worst there is? You present as if any suffering negates the existence of a God. One obvious answer is that if all we knew was unrestrained joy, then how much fun would joy be?
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what do you want anyone to asnwer you? what will placate you?? why did a tsunami kill thousands of people? why did arab terrorist suicide bombers crash planes into the WTC? why are muslim extremists killing thousands in darfur? why did the holocaust happen? bad things happen to good people. none of us is god, so how are we supposed to answer?
[ Reply | Options ]I believe the causes of these things are pretty well known. They just have nothing to do with "God". The fact that innocent people are killed by tsunamis and earthquakes would seem to indicate that "God", as traditionally defined, does not exist. Either he is not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not supremely benevolent. Otherwise, these tragedies would not occur.
[ Reply | Options ]how do you know what is "benevolent." people die every day. do you mean to say that the only way you can believe in God is if we were all immortal? does many people dying at once in one place indicate no god, but people dying of old age indicate god? your post makes no sense.
[ Reply | Options ]Steady on. My post definitely makes sense, and as you say, our understanding of "benevolence" is of central importance. You seem inclined to argue that our puny human intellect is not able to grasp the meaning of "benevolence". Firstly, I don't believe you are sincere in this regard. I'm sure you feel quite competent in pointing out moral and immoral acts. If I drowned an entire village of children, you would not throw up your hands and claim your grasp of morality was limited. However, through his alleged command of the physical universe, God allows scores of children to drown, suffocate and burn every day. If this is "true benevolence", then I must concede that God's understanding of morality is quite different from mine, and I would not consider myself on board with that kind of deity.
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