[-]our elementary school has an open school policy, meaning you can drop off and pick up in the classroom in every grade, you can eat lunch at school with your child anytime you want, and you can observe class anytime you want. My friends tell me this is very unique. Is it? Does anyone here have kids at a school with this kind of policy?
43 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]-
-
-
-
OR: That's such a crude insult - maybe i'm naive b/c my dcs are still young, but i think it's nice to still be a part of their day ONCE IN A WHILE. why if someone disagrees with you do the insults fly?
[ Reply | Options ]np You don't have to have school age kids to know this is a ridiculous idea. Think back to when YOU were in school. Think about how it would have been if parents could show up "anytime" they wanted. Either ALL the parents would be there a good chunk of the time or a FEW of the parents would be there consistently--which would make the kids of the non cling-on type parents feel bad that their mommy doesn't live at school, too.
[ Reply | Options ]OP has already said it's a private school and the school wouldn't permit disruption or allowing a parent to show up "anytime." Thinking back to my elementary there were Moms around, volunteering at the office or a bake sale. of course i wouldn't want a rash of parents taking over, but a hard divide btwn parents and school at such a young age I don't think is necessary.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
-
-
That's the kind of policy that sounds great, but really is terrible. What schools really need is a bunch of parents hanging around all day? Please let your children grow up!!!!!
[ Reply | Options ]Op here -- IME, no parent hangs around all day, not even in K. But I like that when I am at school for some other reason, whether it be a committee mtg or dropping something off in the office, I can stop by the classroom and hang out in the back for a few minutes. I have also had lunch with my kids maybe twice a year, again, when I was at school for some other reason. As far as I know, my amount of time in the classroom is pretty typical. And I don't think drop off and pick up in the classroom is disruptive. Again, when the door closes (there is a 10 min drop off time) I've never noticed any parents staying in the classroom. I don't think people take advantage of it.
[ Reply | Options ]All it takes is for one helicopter parent to be in dc's class & it becomes a problem. Even if it isn't your dc, you might think about the dc who has a single working parent who really isn't able to drop by for lunch, etc. I would be sad for that child.
[ Reply | Options ]OP again -- it's a private school, so if any teacher felt a parent was being disruptive in any way, the school would handle it. And I don't think policies should be aimed at the lowest common denominator. But IME, it's not the kid of the single working parent who never has anyone at school, it's the kid of the socialite! But again, that isn't a reason to prevent all other parents from occassionally being there.
[ Reply | Options ]My dcs attend private also and I would not want this policy. I think it is great if everyone has the chance to sign up once a year to come by pre-planned but I see your dc's school policy being more trouble than it's worth. I can think of at least 3 parents off the top of my head who would wear out their welcome by October.
[ Reply | Options ]
i think it's a great policy...means they have nothing to be ashamed of in the way they are teaching your child(ren).
[ Reply | Options ]
The whole idea of elementary school is that it is where your child goes to be educated and socialized. It is NOT a place for parents to be popping in. Let your kids have their own space!
[ Reply | Options ]-
ITA - this is a terrible policy, I don't think very common (have never heard of it) and would hate if my school did this. I think the kids whose parents were never there would feel bad. I WOHM FT and its hard enough for me to be at DC's school during work hours for assemblies, performances, PT conferences, book parties, celebrations, sports events, etc. I do try to make most of these important things but if I felt some kind of (even unspoken) obligation to be there more often - because other parents were, or whatever, it would really stress me out.
[ Reply | Options ]I am also a FT/WOHM and I think I go to the same school as OP. I actually love the policy b/c while I am rarely at school (my kids take the bus to and from school) when I do have to be there for something like what you mentioned, I love that I can then stay for lunch or just hang out a bit before or after and observe. My kids have never given me the impression that parents are hanging out all day. I know a lot of parents are there for drop off and pick up, but a fair number of kids take the bus and my kids have never said they feel bad about me not being there more often.
[ Reply | Options ]-
-
I'm outside of NYC, but our local neighborhood public school is relatively open. You don't drop off or pick up in the classroom, but you can just walk into the office and have lunch with your child whenever you want. Also, depending on the teacher/year, most classrooms have parent volunteers for literacy or math -- I don't see these volunteers as Helicopter Parents. The teachers love the extra help and it helps to alleviate the ratios
[ Reply | Options ]
-
[-]Did you invite your nanny (as a guest) to your child's first birthday?
9 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]no I didn't. She has her own family and I knew if I invited her she'd say she'd come (because she felt obligated)and I didn't want her giving up a Sat or Sun and traveling in from Brooklyn to attend my kids parties. That said, she always brought them gifts when they were younger and we celebrated with a cupcake or something like that on the day of the birthday
[ Reply | Options ]I always invite her but make a very strong point of saying we'd love to have you but please do not feel obligated. If she hasn't had other plans she has come & if she did she didn't come but took dc out for a special birthday lunch (which I always give her the $ for anyway). If you have a good working relationship it's easy. If your relationship is complicated, you're never going to win no matter what you do, right?;)
[ Reply | Options ]Please don't do this. I have been to enough parties where the nanny comes with her own kids and sits there seething at all your kids have and hers don't. Instead do a party with her when she's working, have cupcakes or something. She is your employee first and foremost. Don't invite her and let her know you feel guilty. Sorry to be so blunt. Also nanny's kids are not necessarily the best behaved.
[ Reply | Options ]
[-]How much money do you have in savings (not including retirement accounts)? Just curious.
39 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
-
-
-
I would imagine one that doesn't need much exercise. I've heard that mastiffs are good apt dogs. Call the ASPCA; they can counsel you.
[ Reply | Options ]they don't need much exercise but they are huge. so you might feel crowded just by the size of hte dog. but I generally agree--one that doesn't need 3 hour long walks or runs every day--no greyhounds.
[ Reply | Options ]Greyhounds actually make terrific apt dogs! Very counterintuitive, but since they're generally raised in kennels (at the track :( ) they're used to small spaces and they like to curl up like a cat. And bizarrely they don't seem to require tons of exercise. Re mastiffs--I don't know about the exercise requirements but I don't think I could deal with a dog which requires a shovel to pick up its poop.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
and I'm sure there are lots of cranky New Yorkers who would say "Good God, please no more babies!" I've had both and frankly people who whine and complain about either irk me no end. If you want to live in a bubble, please find one and move there.
[ Reply | Options ]There should be certain neighborhoods and buildings for dogs...no yapping in my building, no piss and poop on my street...I'd be in heaven.
[ Reply | Options ]I live in New York, so obviously I haven't chosen to live in a bubble. However, constantly avoiding dog shit on the sidewalk, and having every living plant turn into a pet toilet makes me wish there were fewer dogs. I wouldn't tell people how many babies to have, unless they were in the Klan and "reproducing for the white race".
[ Reply | Options ]
There's a great book called "Paws to Consider" that has an excellent break-down on all the breeds--which make better apartment dogs, which are best for kids, etc. Very insightful. Off the top of my head, I'd say think about a Bichon, Boston terrier, poodle, Cavalier. I have a dachshund--they are terrific city dogs but can be noisy and don't always love kids.
[ Reply | Options ]We were just talking about this and I asked a friend who is a dog trainer. I should also say, DH does not like small dogs, and I hate shedding. So based on that criteria, child friendly and apartment living she suggested either one of the poddle mixes (labradooble and goldendoodle) or a portugese water dog. But go with a reputable breeder if purebred and if a mix try to check lineage as much as possible. When too far down the line you can end up with health issues. GL! We are hoping to have "Santa" bring a dog to us next Christmas. I got one as a kid and it was the best present ever.
[ Reply | Options ]good luck! I spent years waiting for Santa to bring me a dog!! Some friends with the same criteria as you ended up with two Coton de Tulears and they adore them. Labradoodles are awesome but just a warning--the ones I've met have been incredibly energetic and not necessarily non-shedding! Meet the parents, definitely.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
[-]We make good money but are still surprised that everyone in our dd's school (private) goes on winter and spring break. We are both bankers but are reluctant to spend this kind of money. How come everyone else seems to have no problems with it? Do you think they just spend as if there is no tomorrow? Or that many have trust funds or inheritance? Just genuinely surprised.
46 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]one thing I have learned over the years is that people spend on different things and save on different things. I have friends who eat out almost every meal but never take a vacation. then there are those who scrimp and save on groceries, clothes, etc, so that they can vacation. you never know what they are saving on.
[ Reply | Options ]We are far from super-rich but we go on winter and spring break. We usually just try to plan our visits to family (they happen to live in some nice places) or our vacations for those periods. My in-laws love to go on vacations, so they foot the bill for many of the things we wouldn't dream of planning on if it were just our family.
[ Reply | Options ]we are also normal bankers but we do our 5 weeks of vacation. 1 week in spring, 2 weeks for xmas and 2 weeks for summer. we are foreigners and enjoy our time without splurging. we go sking out west every march. these are our pleasures in life.
[ Reply | Options ]Just curious. How much do you spend on vacation per year? Do you also rent house in the summer?
[ Reply | Options ]spring - about 6k (sking is expensive), summer 8k (we fly to europe and the 4 tickets cost about 5k), winter 12k (new years is expensive and the tickets are also close to 5k). - so i guess around 25k. we do not rent in the summer, but could do isolated weekends in b&b or something inexpensive. we really enjoy this.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Our HHI is $120K. Dc goes to public school. But we go away most holidays because that's what we like spending our money on. People are different.
[ Reply | Options ]-
np, does it? i've never had a vacation that cost that much - where are you going?
[ Reply | Options ]-
wow, thanks actually that's a good tip, we've only just moved to the US and i was thinking of possible places to go on holiday while here that weren't Europe as i'm from the UK so have been there loads. i have no idea how much stuff like this costs as i'm used to cheap Euro flights etc.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
even skiing for the 4 of us doesn't cost that much, because we do it wisely. we look for deals on hotels/condos, we don't have to stay ski in/out, and we try to book what we can with miles, points, etc. and we always get a place with a kitchenette so we don't have to eat 3 meals a day out.
[ Reply | Options ]you must be flying first class and staying in really nice hotels all the time, plus room service, etc. We only fly first class if we're upgraded, we stay in nice hotels only if we get deals, and rarely eat in the hotel we're staying in. Very nice vacations, rarely spend more than $3K at a time.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
vacations are practically the only time we get an extended block of time together as a family. we like to travel, ski, etc. and there's a closeness that comes from being somewhere else together that you don't get with the distractions of the city. this is a part of our life I would really, REALLY hate to compromise on, because these are some of the most special and memorable times that we will have to remember. so far, dc have been in preK so we've taken them out as needed. going forward, we will make use of the school vacations for this (and cough up the extra cash for peak period travel!)
[ Reply | Options ]What I want to know is how everyone has so much vacation time! 2 weeks each at holidays and spring and another 2-3 in the summer? we only get 3 weeks and one of them is used up by random days off.
[ Reply | Options ]most white collar jobs are 4 weeks, and higher up the ladder in finance and law the vacation weeks are sort of unlimited as long as you are performing.
[ Reply | Options ]or: this is actually a mistaken impression. plenty of jobs in big corporations start out with 2 weeks and then go to 3 weeks after 5+ years until you are at a pretty high level. if you change companies every 4-5 years, it's hard to get past 3 weeks.
[ Reply | Options ]i'm a podunk middle manager, but anytime i change jobs i tell them i can't do with fewer than 3.
[ Reply | Options ]or: 3 weeks is what we each get for this same reason. i got to 4 weeks at my last job, but dh changes far more frequently. but we use up one of those weeks taking a long weekend here or there, stuff for the kids, etc. so that leaves 2 weeks. usually take one in the summer and then some days off around the holidays. there's just not enough to take 2 other vacations a year.
[ Reply | Options ]
Vacation doesn't have to cost a huge amount. FL or similar is pretty inexpensive
[ Reply | Options ]Not sure how some UB go on vacation for 3-5k -- i guess it depends on how many dc you have but assuming 2 dc that means 2 hotels rooms/night (1500k w/all fees & taxes); airfare ($2-3K) plus meals & activities (1k). this is not 5 star all the way either. we go on 2 vacations/year with a goal of balancing quality & budget: 3 dc and it cost $10k for the week.
[ Reply | Options ]no trust or inheritance. we do 10 days-2 weeks over xmas/nye which is the most expensive (last year i think @ 12k); 1 week spring (usually to grandma in florida); long weekend just me and dh (usually mexico or SBH @$4k); summer 2-3 weeks (europe or beach @$15-20k)...it adds up. but we don't spend a lot on other things (jewelry, clothes, etc..) we love traveling and being together as a family.
[ Reply | Options ]
[-]What % of HH income do you spend during the year? In other words, what % are you able to save? We spend about 35% of our gross income but that is 65% of our net income. It shocks me how much we spend- just wondering how others do. (2 toddler DCs at home, 3br rental on UWS, full time nanny).
6 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]-
Hard to say but this is what I think we generally do... We make $210k but then I usually get a bonus between $20-40k every year and we save all of it. I max out my 401k, so that's roughly $16k, but pre-tax income. We try to save at least $2k per month, too. So keeping in mind that these nubmers are not precise, and some are before/after tax, I would put the total yearly amount at about $50k, conservatively. We have two children, DH stays at home, 2-bdrm rental in Brooklyn.
[ Reply | Options ]depends a lot on bonuses but in years where we are paid well, we save about 50% of our gross. In moderately good years, we save around 25-30% of gross. If we got really boned (and it hasn't happened yet, knock wood), we would only ensure we saved our bare minimum threshold ie) maxing out our 401ks, putting $10k into each of our 3 DCs 529s, and maybe $50k into retirement savings
[ Reply | Options ]
-
[-]Ahh. Mothers on the UES are so toxic. It's so competitive. Hate it, hate it, hate it.
62 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]-
I can't take this constant talk about tt schools, gossiping about other dc's parents in preschool. In Europe mothers will get together in the Park and just hang out and enjoy life but here I feel it's constant competition, trying to get ahead etc.
[ Reply | Options ]-
-
My cousins in Europe are worse. They try to get their 2 yo's into TT nursery schools and the 2yo's wear uniforms. Add class anxiety (nobility stuff) into the mix.
[ Reply | Options ]-
-
Interesting. Britain is like that as well. Oh well, I am from Sweden and we are much more relaxed.
[ Reply | Options ]maybe, but my cousins in Germany try very hard to one-up each other and me about who is the most eco-friendly, etc. You mean your baby sling isn't organic cotton?!?!? It's just as annoying.
[ Reply | Options ]did you live in the UK? I only ask because it's where I'm from and I've personally never met anyone like this, I clearly move in the wrong sort of circles. All the mothers i knew just hung out in the parks and chatted. Pretty much like the mothers i've met now living in Brooklyn.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
My dd is in an UES pre-school, but we live on the UWS. It is torture for me, but I survive. I try to be polite to everyone, but not engage in chit chat. And I try not to cry in front of the other moms no matter how hurtful their comments are.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Some of the other moms called me a whore. They constantly talk about my failed marriage, my career, and the fact that I became pregnant with #2 out of wedlock. Some things are said to my face, other times I just see or overhear whispering. One woman told me what others had said behind my back. I think she was just trying to prepare me for when it finally made it back to me, but it was still hurtful.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
-
Where is all this happening? I live on E 84th Street, have a few close friends in the area and am chatty with probably 20 or more women at school (public). There are a few nuts who I avoid when I can and smile and nod at when I can't. What's so weird? We did private nursery school btw and didn't have any issues there at all.
[ Reply | Options ]It's true but I've actually met some sweeties up there; Transplants to NY sometimes listen to realtors and end up in bizarre areas. As a funny aside, I was up by Gracie with my child when she was about 15 mos old.She'd just begun toddling and yet, was a very adept conversationalist(it was just her thing).Within minutes, there were about 3 moms striking up chats about pre-schools,'giftedness',blahblahblah and what I should be thinking about for pre-k. I segued into how my top priority was getting us out of the shelter and getting myself rehabbed from my yearslong crack habit. It was an amazingly fun time! They scattered ever so indiscretely.
[ Reply | Options ]btw-'Elena'-CONSIDER YO"SELF PUNKED!!! You were the most revolting.The other 2 were just worried...
[ Reply | Options ]-
-
no why? it's funny (regardless if it happened or not). She has a sense of humor which many lack on UB.
[ Reply | Options ]It did and it was a little perverse but I needed to get going anyway.Honestly,they're kids were all so young and the conversation started to go south pretty early.They were hanging out together but were trying to prove something to each other with me as their new prop.It doesn't only happen on the UES and we all know it.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
-
yes, it's true. so think hard about whether you want to send dc to one of those ues schools.
[ Reply | Options ]-
-
Honestly, I think Manhattan has a disproportionate number of neurotic, striving, competetive people - some are moms on the UES. Deal with it or leave. I've lived here my whole life and I'm the least neurotic, striving or competetive person I know and I cope :)
[ Reply | Options ]I think there might be a few different subsets of people. There are the Diller Quaille people and the people who stress about going to St. Maartin with the kids (even though the nanny is coming) but we go to a low-key preschool and the people are really nice and not that competitive. Many of them went to UB tt colleges after public school and plan to send their kids to public. I grew up in a cheesy NJ suburb and people were SO competitive about college, cars, purses...
[ Reply | Options ]OP - Diller Quaille. Hated it. Mothers there were the worst subset of the UES. My dd took one class there and then never again. Seems more a social club than dc learning about music.
[ Reply | Options ]OR. Yes, it wasn't my scene. We go to the concerts on weekends. Two times ago there really was a woman at Yura psyching out the other Mom about getting into Episcopal (I think... they didn't name names). Then the Mom who seemed pretty normal was getting stressed. But Ruppert Playground isn't like that.
[ Reply | Options ]
Curious...which one? My in-laws just moved to an "exclusive" suburb and the people there are just exhausting. I get looked over walking to the bathroom at a restaurant. Shoes, bags, etc.
[ Reply | Options ]
My kids are at what this board considers a high maintenance, UES TT preschool. But the parents are really, really nice. Sure, there are a few pills but if you steer clear of them and don't engage you can find great people anywhere. I probably attract more "normal" friends because I don't get all caught up in the nonsense. Just disengage and ignore. Or kill with kindness.
[ Reply | Options ]-
np - I live on the UWS but dc goes to Hunter so I'm at Yura at times. Love their food. And, quite frankly, I also love observing the scene there. I've picked up hints on the best horse camps for dcs "out east" (not that I'm ever "out east"). And I just love taking note of the fashions.
[ Reply | Options ]There is nothing and I mean NOTHING more invaluable than getting free horse camp tips while nibbling on a cupcake at Yura! ;) You might also learn which hotels are "over" in St. Barth's and Anguilla, where to get the best riding boots for everyday wear (E.Vogel, apparently) or whether Beaver Creek or Steamboat Springs has a better ski school for kids. Honestly, you can't buy this kind of scintillating insight!
[ Reply | Options ]LOL. I live in the neighborhood and send my dc to nearby tt private. I wear yoga pants (cheap Land's End ones) to Yura. Rarely see anyone wearing anything more spectacular than that--nor are they discussing horse camps or anything else loudly enough for me to hear. Guess I'm going at the wrong time of day.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
For women like me - womanly-figure/always fighting with your weight/size 8 - 10ish- how long did it take to get your figure back to acceptable after giving birth to DC #2? I feel disgusting and huuuge. Went from Pg clothes to 14 and 12; some 10s now but still feel huge. Nothing fits right and the scale is crazy I am so heavy. HELP.
[ Reply | Watch | Options ]
-
great question. i remember story time, play time and art. what was wrong with that model?
[ Reply | Options ]-
np-i am so with you. it's utterly tragic. like somehow in the race to be well educated, we've forgotten that education isnt about skills but growing a whole person. by pushing specific academics over combined reading/math readiness skills and socialization, we're doing our children such a disservice. note: brearley and collegiate BOTH do this
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
When private schools started redshirting and kids started turning 7 in kindergarten! LOL.
[ Reply | Options ]OP: When I toured privates and my good zoned public I was struck by how little play and free time most of these K's had. What as parents can we do?
[ Reply | Options ]my good friend who is a 1st grade teacher at CPE1 says its because the mayor has lost his mind, and wants to share that with everyone else. Sadly, I think its a bigger problem than that- priorities all f***ed up and afraid of letting kids just be kids. Not understanding that all that time they "waste" they are learning more than any boring hw packet can ever teach...
[ Reply | Options ]My dc went to K at ECFS and it wasn't particularly academic, kids loved it and they let kids play and use their imagination! DH and I thought it was perfect. Oh, and my dc reads well, can do math, speaks well, etc. So I don't think there's any advantage to push kids when they're so little.
[ Reply | Options ]I'm assuming that if your dc goes to ECFS, his parents are educated, sophisticated, worldly and interested in passing these advantages onto dc. That would be a major difference between private school and a percentage of the population at public school. That is why public schools have to begin academics earlier. They are compensating for what many incoming students have missed.
[ Reply | Options ]
[-]This is a question for SAHM anxious to place DD in TT schools -- what's the point exactly? Why send DD to Brearley/Spence etc. and then HYP only for her to end up where you are? don't you think this is a tremendous waste of resources? Or does she need to go to HYP in order to meet the right husband?
621 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]Yes. I already did background checks on all her preschool classmates to scout for potential husbands.
[ Reply | Options ]OP here: I understand the question may seem obnoxious and cynical, but I've always wondered what the SAHMs are expecting for DD? This is a question for the educated moms who are happy to be home and have no ambition to go to work. Why the clamor to send DD to TT?
[ Reply | Options ]I worked till I was 41. I'm now very happy to be home educating my DD when she's not in school. I have a 2 year old Ds & am pg with #3. I have no desire to return to work but that's not to say that I don't think that I have wasted my education nor that I necessarily expect my DD to choose the route that I have. Just as my parents wanted to give me every opportunity I want my DD to have the same.
[ Reply | Options ]that is the problem with America today. Education should be valued for its intellectual gain as well as for its pragmatic gain. I am sure you have learned a lot and became an erudite more well-rounded person as a result of your college education. You should be proud to be a Mother to your children. I envy you. I wish I could be a SAHM! I have a graduate degree and I work but that's because I have to.
[ Reply | Options ]
I have an MBA from a top school and worked on wall street for a long time, made a lot of money and had a great career. I'll go back to work eventually, but education is important to me regardless of my current career.
[ Reply | Options ]why do freaking judgmental? Some of us have worked our whole lives before having kids in our late thirties. We have dh's who have very demanding careers and we are home because we feel that it is important to be the one taking care of our kids. We don't judge you. We have worked for a long time before having kids and will work again in the future. We want our daughters to go to academically demanding schools if they are smart and interested because learning is valuable and important and fulfilling.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
Okay, OP's being snarky, but we can ask the same question in another way. How does a SAHM deal with what her DD could see as a contradiction? "You're telling me that I should do well in school to eventually get a great job, but you did all that work and ended up staying home." Do you explain that you'll be going back to work eventually, that it's good for family to be the priority in the short term, etc.? Or does the subject never come up?
[ Reply | Options ]np How would a poorly educated SAHM be a better SAHM? Education is ALWAYS valuable, imo.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Of course! You must come from a household that did not value education. Most of us here do.
[ Reply | Options ]-
I choose to spend my time volunteering a my children's school raising thousands of dollars for the PTA. Could not do that without education and experience. I worked from the time I was 16 until I had my children at 36. I have no shame about staying home, and I resent the idea that SAHMs are all a bunch of lazy, bejeweled losers. Glad that you work and are happy, but stop judging.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
OR: My question had more to do with the behavior you're modelling for your DD, i.e. the message you might be sending her about what she should aim for. If you want her to think that she can become a professional someday but you yourself are SAHM, do you worry that it reads as "Do as I say not as I do"? Or do you make a point to have professional women in her life so that she can see that plenty of women do that, too?
[ Reply | Options ]It's about having the CHOICE to do what you want--whether that's to have a career or to be a SAHM.
[ Reply | Options ]-
They may if they marry an heiress who goes to S/B/C! No, seriously, this post is just dumb.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Who stays home because they are "just a girl"? You are trying to incite controversy and nobody here seems to agree with your ridiculous POV.
[ Reply | Options ]Men do. Sad but true. Even your husband, regardless of what he says to your face.
[ Reply | Options ]I'm sorry that you married a loutish oaf, but I've been SAHM and WOHM and my dh has respect for me either way. Don't project your insecurities about a bad relationship on others or purport to speak for all men.
[ Reply | Options ]They may say it but that is a reflection of their being jerks. If people you know at work are racist, do you think everyone around them should change their lives to suit the racists' beliefs? As a woman, you should be speaking up and fighting these ridiculous stereotypes. And FWIW, the most sexist men that I know at work tend to be the laziest and most entitled.
[ Reply | Options ]Working out the fact that dh not only doesn't like the situation but resents it and complains to his colleagues instead of changing his situation at home. He is at fault for a) marrying a person like this b) agreeing to this arrangement c) enabling it despite his resentment. It's depressing, that's all.
[ Reply | Options ]
I remember in the clinical years a physician who was in the first UChicago class to take women telling me that not a single one of those women practiced- and they took spots men could have used. I have heard from the male senior partner of a group which is often cited here for a subspecialty that he would NEVER hire another woman after she cut bait. I have a friend in Internal Medicine who said the same. It does hurt us because when you are hiring, and I have been in that position myself, you know that men are in it for real. And you can not be sure because women seem to work "electively" in many cases.
[ Reply | Options ]This is lame. I hate that these women are being blamed for the men's inherent sexism. Some women don't have kids by choice. Some are the breadwinners of their families. Some live in a household where both parents work. We should be angered that our society doesn't make it easier for all parents, men and women, to work and be parents. (And yes, I understand there there are a few fields where this might not be feasible.)
[ Reply | Options ]OMG. The physician who was in the first UChicago class to take women? He's a fossil! Times have changed. And a male senior partner would never hire a woman because he had a woman who cut bait? Sounds like they have the problem with women. And I would bet they were totallly charming to work with and lovely and supportive of the women, too. /Snark/
[ Reply | Options ]This post is last century. I am a surgeon and have many WOHM female surgeon friends. In my residency, men were ones who took unexpected time off: for hangovers, sickness, family leave, paternity leave, etc
[ Reply | Options ]
-
My brother certainly did - went to an Ivy league school, married an heiress he met there and is teaching HS because that's what he wants to do - his grandchildren will not have to work unless they want to.
[ Reply | Options ]Ah, I wonder why he wants to work and it appears many of the women who marry well do not.
[ Reply | Options ]"Many women who marry well do not"? Really? Have you considered that many do not because their spouses work so much to be able to live in this city that if they worked too then nobody would see the kids. Also, do you not consider charity and volunteer work actual work? Some of this stuff can take as much time as a full-time job. Signed, WOHM.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
I have had a very successful career, and now I take care of my kids. I am modeling acceptance of personal choice.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
I realize it was a different era, but my mom stayed at home even though she had a college education (and her family didn't have much money, so it was a stretch for her to go) and she had met my dad before she started college. I learned that education was important. and it helped that my mother went back to work when I was 10ish, so I learned what that did for her.
[ Reply | Options ]I explain that she can do anything she wants, but not everything at the same time, and that a good education is necessary to have attractive options. There is also inherent value in learning that has nothing to do with income potential.
[ Reply | Options ]-
PLEASE. There are always contradictions and tradeoffs once you have a child. You could say that you WOHM to make things better for the family. But of course, if you have any sort of a high-powered career, you will miss time with the family (dinners, etc.) to make things better for the family. There is always some sort of contradiction in the equation. Most important thing is that you give your child every opportunity to have as many options as possible.
[ Reply | Options ]
I am a WOHM and I think this is a really strange question--but one that people asked about the purpose of the 7 sisters 50-60 years ago. If you think the purpose of education is to "get you" somewhere--some type of job--then I guess it may seem like a tremendous waste. But if the purpose of education is to turn out citizens who can draw on a rich background in the arts and sciences, using their knowledge everyday as voters, parents, and workers (and I think SAHM counts as a job), then a great education is invaluable.
[ Reply | Options ]I think that's an important distinction - if you want DD to get a good education just to be an informed, thoughtful person, then it doesn't matter if she ends up SAHM. But if you want her to have a career, it does. SAH is a job but not a career.
[ Reply | Options ]Nicely done! But I wonder...OP, how would you feel if your DD becomes a SAHM? Would you regret the time and money spend on her education? What if she finished HYP with distinction and then married a mall cop or fry cook? Would you consider her education a waste? Or what if she becomes a mall cop or a fry cook or an exotic dancer despite her education and your example?
[ Reply | Options ]You put this beautifully. OP seems to be one of those people for whom the phrase, "Knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing" holds true.
[ Reply | Options ]the problem is that top schools don't want to waste their time and $$$ educating women to stay home. they want to educate high achievers who make tons of money and funnel it back to them. the more hyp moms who decide to exclusively (or nearly exclusively) sahm, the fewer women hyp will take. we are hurting ourselves. and yes, i understand every woman should have a choice and that an ivy education only expands those choices, but the hard reality is that men are a better bet for most top schools these days.
[ Reply | Options ]OR: I really don't see this happening. I help with admissions for another ivy, and believe me, this is the last thing on committee members' minds. I have never wondered if someone is going to choose to be a stay at home parent, and I have never heard somebody else voice concern. If committees were to start letting in fewer women, believe me, there would be hell to pay. We try very hard to balance our classes in terms of sex, ethnicity, SES, experience, etc. This concern used to be voiced more frequently in med/law admissions, but I think it is a thing of the past even there.
[ Reply | Options ]i'll find the article where admissions officers are quoted on the record about this. it's discouraging.
[ Reply | Options ]I am still waiting for you to post the article you read about admissions officers at "top schools" not wanting to waste their time educating women to stay home.
[ Reply | Options ]from the new york times article on the subject published on sept. 5, 2005: ''It really does raise this question for all of us and for the country: when we work so hard to open academics and other opportunities for women, what kind of return do we expect to get for that?'' said Marlyn McGrath Lewis, director of undergraduate admissions at Harvard, who served as dean for coeducation in the late 1970's and early 1980's.
[ Reply | Options ]
NP: I am a physician and I have heard many male colleagues say that it was a waste to use a valuable training spot on a woman, they would never hire another woman, etc. We certainly DO damage ourselves with this.
[ Reply | Options ]No. Men do the damage by being misogynists on this front. And physicians are notoriously sexist, particularly in male-dominated specialties. This old tripe has been used against women since they started entering in any sort of numbers. What about men who switch hospitals, practices, firms, hedge funds for "better" opportunities? Those spots must be retrained, too.
[ Reply | Options ]I posted a lot of details in a previous post, probably a blessing that it disappeared, but essentially whenever you hire a man, you know he is in it. When you hire a woman, you know that she is basically working electively. That is a choice anyone who has hired for awhile acknowledges.
[ Reply | Options ]How do you know she's working electively? Do you know the status of everyone's fertility? Or that they want kids? Or that she's not going to be the breadwinner? Sounds like you're as bad as the men! Maybe it's the field you're in but I hired for years in a very demanding (hours wise) field and I never discriminated based on gender and was never disappointed. If I may generalize, in fact, the women worked harder and were more loyal. Were not always sniffing out new opportunities. They also, for the most part, made better managers.
[ Reply | Options ]I prefer to hire women too- I find the men try to take over in general- but this is something that enough male colleagues have complained about that it must be real. They also say openly that it affects hiring decisions.
[ Reply | Options ]Maybe, but this is a bigger issue entirely. Many, many men still have problems with having a woman in a position of authority or making $$$$$. This speaks to their own personal shortcomings and they would never say anything so openly about Blacks, Jews, Hispaniccs but find it OK to stereotype women regardless of a particular woman's choices. Some men find it hard to cede their privilege in society and don't want to compete on actual merit. What can I say? I'd like to lodge a complaint against all the men in my office who are paid better and get better treatment simply by being men.
[ Reply | Options ]?We are talking about two different issues. I too find men have difficulty with women bosses- so I tend to prefer to hire women. However, I have seen many women opt out after someone has incurred expense to build her practice. They have said that they do not wish to keep losing this money this way. What can one say to that?
[ Reply | Options ]But how do you know which women to penalize? This is the problem. Do you forgo the opportunity to hire all women (illegal even if you wanted to)? How would you decide? You can't ask them to get their tubes tied or sign an oath in blood saying that they won't ever bear children and quit, right? I realize I'm being snarky, but what do you say to this? My dc's pediatrician is a young woman with 3 kids and has shown no signs that she will quit. I'm glad she's our ped and I would hate to think that a prestigious practice would not have given her a position.
[ Reply | Options ]To me, women need to think harder about the decision to SAHM permanently and whether this is a choice they are making because they just don't really want to work outside the home. They should consider the implications of this for their sons, daughters and husbands. I think that if more women thought this way, less would opt out and there would be better options for all.
[ Reply | Options ]Is it really in droves? (Genuinely interested) It just seems odd to me that so many women would work so hard for so many years in medicine, incur massive debt and just walk away permanently. Is this a real crisis in this field? (And if it is, I don't think this calculus is readily translated to so many other professions or career options.)
[ Reply | Options ]Not so much in law. I am an attorney. There are part-time gigs and in-house options. Also, smaller firms have more options. Yes, if you're citing numbers at biglaw, then I agree. But that's not always attributable to gender. Many quit due to grueling hours or because they know they're never going to make partner. Medicine may very well be a different story and have more of an impact due to its importance to society.
[ Reply | Options ]My dh is biglaw. All the biglaws I know are still working and will work at least until mid-60s. Biglaw typically doesn't pay enough to retire so early. Finance can be different of course because the payouts can be tremendous, especially if in a successful hedge fund. It would be interesting to see what happens to the 3 couples you know in the next decade. Both spouses may find second acts. (lots of high powered, go-go people get bored in retirement.)
[ Reply | Options ]yes, i know that one of the husbands (a finance one) is planning to start a goat farm. the lawyer actually became a judge (and now i reveal a bit more info - i am in the UK). this is not *really* retiring i know, but his caseload is v low as he wanted to take it easy. and in the UK he did make enough to "retire" early.
[ Reply | Options ]
This is bunk. There is no way for HYP to predict who will be SAHM or WOHM. And frankly, I'm sure they don't care as long as the donations keep rolling in. Wouldn't matter whether the money coming in was due to dh's hedge fund or wive's hedge fund. "The hard reality is that men are a better bet for most top schools these days"???? Pat Buchanan, is that really YOU??!?
[ Reply | Options ]That's weird. The numbers show that there are more girls than ever entering college, including top universities. Stop being an alarmist and playing into the male dominated way of thinking. Think about how to make the workplace better so that the best workers don't leave because they can no longer work AND have any semblance of a normal family life. Stop bashing women.
[ Reply | Options ]
Ugh, OP, I find this question incredibly stupid (and I'm WOHM 4 life). Is your point that as mothers, we should each put our DCs only on the exact same path through life that we took ourselves? Each of us is shaped by our experiences and we all make choices that we believe are best for us, and I. If you really demand that your DD has to live the exact same life that you did, then I hope she's ok with being judgmental and boring when she's your age.
[ Reply | Options ]I often wonder this in another way - so many of the most obsessed-with-private-school moms I've met have awful educations themselves. Truly lousy colleges (if they finished an accredited 4 year college at all). How do you reconcile that? "Do well in school, go to a top college, so you won't be stupid like me"?
[ Reply | Options ]Oh my gosh - wanting for your kids to have something better than you had is the universal story of parenting. Do you really think the same thing of a father who works hard in a factory so his kid can go to college some day? Or is this just classist bs jealousy?
[ Reply | Options ]But these mothers didn't grow up poor. They grew up with every advantage, many even went to private school themselves. They were just not smart or academic. Many of them went to really expensive colleges. They were just really bad expensive colleges. Don't spin this into some Horatio Alger story.
[ Reply | Options ]So since they weren't academic they have to assume that their DCs won't be academic either?
[ Reply | Options ]Actually, I think for a large subset it's more about social status than the academics.
[ Reply | Options ]
Do you really believe the only reason a woman would choose to stay home and care for her children PERSONALLY is because she is uneducated? If she has a degree from an Ivy she should place her career before her children? This is a very personal decision that every woman, no matter the level of education, has to make for herself and her family. If a mother wants the best for her DD thats all it is. The future choice to stay home is DDs (if she even decides to have children of her own) it is completely independent of what high school or university she attended. You are a troll.
[ Reply | Options ]By extention, maybe SAHM should just not send DD to private schools either. Maybe then everyone else could get a seat. And while we are at it, maybe all DD's of SAHM should wear burkas, to save them from any corruption, since now everything is riding on meeting the right guy -- having an inferior education and all.
[ Reply | Options ]not sure where to begin here, or why, honestly. i am not anxious to send to a tt school, but i am a sahm RIGHT NOW and i'm pretty sure my daughter already "gets" that some women have phases of their lives. i had an intense, glamorous, high paying career, now i'm taking time to raise a family and for my next phase i want to go into the non-profit work world. she can do it any way she wants, and i want her to have a solid education no matter what.
[ Reply | Options ]-
THIS is why I work- completely by choice. They do what you do, not what you say.
[ Reply | Options ]-
show me the longitudinal study that among people who have the choice, sahms spawn sahms and wohms spawn wohms. and why would you presume that what you do will be right for your child? so you spend hours away from your child by choice, not because you love your job or are doing good work for the world, you do it so your child will work when she grows up? they do what they think is right or what works for them. they don't do what you do unless they're afraid of you or something.
[ Reply | Options ]My children go to school and I am doing good work. I also hope my children will make a meaningful contribution to society beyond paternity. I think meaningful work is important for personal happiness and the greater good. I believe children model after their parents.
[ Reply | Options ]you made a broad statement that children do what you do, not what you say. i'm not looking for your anecdote, and i don't care what you think.
[ Reply | Options ]You don't have to have a career to "make a meaningful contribution to society beyond paternity." I bet my volunteer efforts contribute much more to society than many jobs held by wohms, and my education helps me to do what I do.
[ Reply | Options ]I do volunteer work as well, both related to my career and unrelated. But there is no way in the world it takes me 40+ hours per week.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Well, I think it would be hard for me to personally claim that I was contributing meaningfully to bettering the world based on a couple of charity boards and a few dedicated weeks per year. I have more to offer than that.
[ Reply | Options ]You are making ridiculous and erroneous assumptions. I volunteer 15 to 20 hours a week for several causes (political and social) that I think are very important to society and directly impact lives. You have no right to judge me.
[ Reply | Options ]You asked me what the amount of hours had to do with anything- I answered, citing how the hours were relevant for me personally (and specifically said this)- and you are rebutting claiming I made assumptions about YOUR charity work? I think you are getting crazily defensive- I haven't judged you at all.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
False. My mother was a WOHM with a high power job and I still resent her for it. I made the decision to be a SAHM and I have never been happier. I could never be like my mothr.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Someone sounds jealous. My husband does not resent it at all as I am not sitting around all day at the spa while the kids are with the nanny. It was actually his idea that I stay at home. I take care of the kids (yes with some part time nanny help with school pick up and after school activities as I can't be 3 places at one time), cook every day, manage all the bills, everyone schedules, work on committees and with charities that DH and I are passionate about, etc. It balances out quite nicely.
[ Reply | Options ]You wrote, "Here's hoping your DH doesn't resent it." Which I find funny because in many families with SAHM situations, the DH not only has supported it but has encouraged it. It makes DH's life easier! Everything is taken care of and the childcare/household stuff doesn't get split 50-50. Just my observation.
[ Reply | Options ]I hear that repeated over and over, but the majority of my friends are men and that is not what they say privately. It is really surprising that the wives swear it up and down and the guys claim that they absolutely did not encourage it but didn't want to say no.
[ Reply | Options ]-
They claim the wives can screw them financially and basically take their kids from them and "she has all damn day" to sit around and exact revenge. So they suck it up.
[ Reply | Options ]How can a person with zero income screw them financially? I worked in matrimonial law for many years and for the most part it was the men who walked away from the marriage with the cash and who hid assets, etc. Again, this sounds weird.
[ Reply | Options ]Are you kidding? You've heard of child support, alimony and marital assets right?
[ Reply | Options ]Like I said, I worked in matrimonial law many years ago and the men seemed to still come out on top. Look at stats on women's financial health after divorce in this country. Terrible!
[ Reply | Options ]Well, you definitely have time to talk about personal issues at work if the men you are friends with repeat this over and over. And if you know what they're saying is not true about being screwed by the system, why wouldn't you say so? Not your duty, but if it were my friends spewing garbage that had no basis in reality time and time again, I would set them straight. But perhaps you are more of a MYOB type than I am.
[ Reply | Options ]Because if he is complaining that this sucks but if he leaves he will get screwed and I start encouraging him to get out and take more than the usual passing interest in his moaning, it is strange. I would think the same if a work mate of the opposite sex did this with DH and I know he would too.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
-
An opinion cannot be wrong, but you seem utterly convinced that only a man would report his male colleagues speaking this way- not sure how that bolsters your case....
[ Reply | Options ]You seem to be tacitly endorsing what you they are saying. Read what you have posted.
[ Reply | Options ]I thought that major life decisions are things that should be endorsed by both parties in a marriage! Why are your male friends passive participants in their own relationships. And what crazy field is this where you know so many of them?
[ Reply | Options ]Well then they married the wrong broads. "What are these guys supposed to do about it?" Really? If they're making tons of money I'm sure they're not shrinking violets. Which means that they are probably getting something out of the arrangement while crying about it to you and playing victim. Don't believe the hype.
[ Reply | Options ]I'm sure if they had high powered career wives, they'd all be happily married for 50+ years! No seriously, they'd be bitching that their wives work and don't take care of the stuff that needs to get done at home and then have an affair because they're not getting enough attention. I know men like these. They're babies.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
-
-
-
-
No, they don't necessarily. My mother WOHM. I don't. We are close. I had a great childhood. But we're different people, different times with different families. So we made different choices. Why is that hard to accept?
[ Reply | Options ]I think that people who have a tendency to be less hardworking will find a way to stay home all day- kids or no; I don't want my son or daughter growing up with the idea that is ok.
[ Reply | Options ]ITA. There are very very few SAHMs I know who genuinely work harder than I do (I can think of only one, frankly). Generally, IME SAHMs are lazy, selfish people faking to be sacrificing for their children and husbands, or posing as some volunteery type making a bunch of phone calls and lunching with other SAHMs talking about their noble causes. Barf.
[ Reply | Options ]
ITD with the notion that "they do what you do, not what you say" -- my mother SAH. So what? It's a totally different generation. If anything I think daughters do the opposite of what their outdated mothers do! Who knows what reality awaits our dcs... there may be a complete backlash back to the 50s era values, where no women work, becuase they saw their mothers breaking their backs and never home. We can't know this.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
Do you think raising children is that meaningless and worthless a job? I'm not saying moms should or shouldn't work, but if someone has chosen to stay home with their kids, why is that more wasteful than someone who is working outside the home? I'd argue that the work I do at home is a lot more meaningful than many jobs other people do. At any rate, why does it stand to reason that a sahm will only raise dd who sahm? Do doctors only have children who have doctors? What a bizarre analysis.
[ Reply | Options ]No, but why get all that education and spend $$ if you're not going to work? That's the question. Just go to communitiy college.
[ Reply | Options ]Because being informed & educated makes you a better Mother, Friend, Spouse, Consumer, Home Owner, Philanthropist, Voter, Volunteer, Citizen, ETC. My education is used every day of my life in every endeavor that I participate in and I would think this would be common sense to all. Good grief.
[ Reply | Options ]Why TT, Ivy educated is the question. Why bother getting an expensive education.
[ Reply | Options ]-
-
I wasn't avoiding the answer, I honestly can't believe that the question is being asked seriously. You're asking a parent why they want to give their child what they percieve to be the best education. Who but an idiot wouldn't want to give their child the best education with the hope that in the future they will have the luxury of choosing to do whatever they want to do.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
If i had gone to community college i wouldn't have had the 15 years of work experience (and $) that I did, wouldn't have ever even met my husband, or been able to hold my own with him as a participant and equal partner in our marriage. He values my opinion on decisions about our children, household and finances, because I have a great education and was a success in my own career before directing those skills towards our family life. None of this would have been possible if I had not received an education and been out in the professional world before marriage.
[ Reply | Options ]
I am with you. DF is a SAHM and never plans on going back to work. Ivy educated.
[ Reply | Options ]Because you are the person who is providing stimulation for your child. And it's better to have an articulate, well-educated person (assuming she's loving) doing that. I've been both WOHM and SAHM and this has to be one of the LAMEST posts about SAHM I've ever read.
[ Reply | Options ]-
No. I said I was WOHM and am now SAHM. I think either option is great and should be based on what works for your family. That's why I think that even if you are SAHM, it's not a "waste" to have a good education. (And when I was WOHM, I had an articulate, well-educated nanny) Please don't make this a SAHM vs. WOHM thing like the OP. My point is that it's not a waste to get a top-notch education if you intend to spend time out of the paid workforce with children.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
Wow, such nastiness put right out there, not even wrapped up in any metaphoric bow.
[ Reply | Options ]Why should it be wrapped in an bow? Maybe it raises issues about class and elitism that we would all rather avoid, but this is a legitimate question about resources and whether we are deluding ourselves that we are preparing DDs to make any meaningful contributions to society (other than being nurturing sahms who will rear great contributors to society i.e. boys).
[ Reply | Options ]So raising children to be responsible and kind citizens is not contributing to society? I think it is appalling and totally misogynistic to think that SAHMing is not a valid choice for women. A career of ANY kind does not have inherent value simply because it is a career or makes money. And what about nannies or other caregivers? Are they not contributing to society b/c they are 'just' raising children?
[ Reply | Options ]NP: if it were "valid" more men would do it and you would be happy if your son did it.
[ Reply | Options ]No. If it were more socially acceptable, more men would do it. It's social and cultural. Duh! Also, it DOESN'T pay any money. And in this society, men, on average are paid more than women to do the same work. That's why not so many men do it.
[ Reply | Options ]The wage gap is closing, especially for professional occupations. It is socially unacceptable for a man in his thirties with children in school to claim he wishes to pursue his hobbies and cook dinner as a way to stay busy all day. If it is unacceptable for men, maybe it should be for women too.
[ Reply | Options ]NP: Personally, as a WOHM, I want it to be MORE socially acceptable for a man to prioritize family over work, not less. It would provide more options and flexibility to everyone, b/c it's when men decide to value things that the world changes.
[ Reply | Options ]So the only acceptable choice when one has a family is to have 2 full-time working out of the home parents? That is just as restrictive for women as forcing women to be SAHM. And it's socially unacceptable for men because of misogyny. Raising children is seen as "women's work" in our society and thus, less worthy. Never mind what's good for kids or society as a whole. Although that may be changing, that old way of thinking still persists.
[ Reply | Options ]Right, but it has never been shown to be good for kids or society as a whole. I would be interested in an economics model that shows how having an educated person sitting around until 3 in the afternoon is "good for society" but I like Tom Friedman.
[ Reply | Options ]Sorry, but what makes you think that an educated person is sitting around until 3? Show me a SAHM and I'll show you a dozen different permutations. Starting with ME! I have a newborn and a dc in nursery. I am running around the clock and my husband works 14+ hour days. No nanny. Just me. Very happy. Will go back to work when kids are in school full time. And yes, I still have my professional contacts and keep myself current in my field by reading up on new developments. Don't make assumptions. You are liable to end up with egg on your face! ;)
[ Reply | Options ]
-
Thank goodness women in the 20's and 70's didn't accept that argument. Otherwise, we would still not be able to vote or have a career! (And I am a sahm!)
[ Reply | Options ]But you are just buying into the male-dominated societal norms by NOT validating women's CHOICE to stay home, and claiming what is seen as 'women's work' is worthless. Having women become more like men (historically) and work outside of the home exclusively is not the answer. Supporting women's right to choose their own paths, whether it is to stay home or work, is. And I would be happy to have my son be a SAHD if he chose and his wife supported it.
[ Reply | Options ]
I went to private school all my life and attended a very good college. I worked for 2 years after college, got married and then we got pregnant. DH and I decided that it would be best for me to stay home, which I had no problem with. I love my life and would not change it for a thing. Even though I SAH, I still participate in various committees and organizations. I'm not sitting at home all day baking cookies and getting manicures. Despite the fact that I don't sit in an office all day, I still value my education and would not be the person I am today without it.
[ Reply | Options ]LOL - hey, the better education you have, the more options you'll have. I like being a SAHM but knowing that I can make a million dollars a year in the workforce if I want to. By the way, I also don't think TT elementary or high schools matter in the least - only college and grad school matter in terms of where you can go professionally. Lower schools should be about what's best for your individual dcs. Hey - and GL to you - you sound a bit bitter toward sahms. You can probably expend your emotional energy better elsewhere.
[ Reply | Options ]It's about what's best for her right now and about having the ability to make her own choices down the road. I'm the first SAHM in 4 generations (mom was a teacher, g'ma was a bookkeeper, GGMa was a seamstress) and I know that things can and will always change in unexpected ways. I practiced law for 10 years before becoming a SAHM and who knows what I will do down the road. Having an solid education is never wasted, no matter what ends up happening.
[ Reply | Options ]I worked in the nonprofit sector for about 14 years before I had my first dc. Held leadership positions in national organizations, including the #1 position for a few years. Worked for a while after first dc, but when I was ready to leave that particular job, I decided that I had earned a change. I'm very proud of the nature of the work that I did, and expect that I will return to it in some form, but even if I never did I would have made a contribution well worth my education.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Where are all the rallying cries about a woman's choice when WOHMs are being told they should not have children?
[ Reply | Options ]Because that's only true when it comes to their DDs. Every other WOHM isn't suited to be a mother, and they aren't shy about letting you know that.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Lots, lots of times. That's why I'm so frustrated. In this post, there's a chorus of "Let my DD have the choice." Where was all this rah rah sisterhood when WOHMs are attacked?
[ Reply | Options ]I think SAHM are bashed as much as WOHM. They get tarred with the "you're lazy, sit home and eat bon-bons and then get a pedicure" rap. I am SAHM and do not bash WOHM. I'm of the "do what's best for your family and stop judging others" school. There are trolls on either side on this board. But I still think there's been some good discussion on this thread.
[ Reply | Options ]
I don't know if it's insecurities so much as very strongly felt opinions about one's chosen path. I am of the live and let live way of looking at things so I feel like if you SAHM or WOHM it is fine unless you are hurting someone else. Ladies, we must stop judging each other and start helping each other.
[ Reply | Options ]
Wow indeed. This was such an obvious troll post. Can't believe it's generated this much traffic. OP must be very pleased with herself.
[ Reply | Options ]Okay, I think the piece that the OP is asking that has not been addressed is why the obsession with such a teeny handful of schools. I'm sure we all agree that education is important, regardless of what work-related choices one makes when parents come along. But I mean, come on, with all this "HYP" bullshit. Haven't those of us who have been out in the world realized that people get great, meaningful educations and land interesting careers from a broader group of schools than those, even (gasp) state schools? Look, I was very fortunate in my educational options, have gone to several top-notch graduate programs, and there's nothing magic about the "HYP" people. They are as smart/dimwitted, interesting/dull, fascinating/annoying as any ...
[ Reply | Options ]Yes. But that's not what the post was about. It was about wasting an expensive education by being SAHM. OP is a troll or needs to move to Afghanistan, pronto!
[ Reply | Options ]She will find Afghanistan to be similar to NYC in a crucial aspect of interest to her. Currently in Afghanistan, 38.2% of women are in some sort of employment - a rate similar to the 41.1% of women in the Harvard class of 1990, with 2 or more children, who were working in 2005 (before the "crisis"). (As you might guess, I can provide references)
[ Reply | Options ]
You seem to think that an education is a commodity that you trade for something, when in fact, it's just life enrichment. I went to an ivy and majored in Philosophy, do you know how many times people in my hometown would ask me, "What are you going to do with that?" I am not a SAHM (work in finance), though I was for a couple years, and I cannot tell you the number of times my MIL had to comment that my parents must have been so disappointed that I was wasting my education.
[ Reply | Options ]Yes, but your Ivy education, regardless of major, helped you get that job. What difference does it make if you went to Dartmouth or Queens College if you are going to be a SAHM?
[ Reply | Options ]You are missing the point. I work in the field of finance where I am presumptively "wasting" my Philosophy education just as you say a SAHM is "wasting" her ivy league education by not working. Since this has been explained many times, I am not beginning to wonder if you are just jealous of those who went to an ivy and now have the luxury of staying home. Otherwise, why care so much?
[ Reply | Options ]
Well, I'll say it. I went to an Ivy and yes, I do wonder why one of my classmates, who always wanted to SAH, went to the Ivy with me. She could've just as easily gone to a local college.
[ Reply | Options ]There is a correlation between SAHM and DDs who opt out of WOH. Those who are unable to read academic papers can look at http://hcwc.fas.harvard.edu/NYT%20Women%20at%20Elite%20Colleges.pdf. Those who went to TT and/or HYP can look up the works of Marianne Bertrand and Claudia Goldin, among other researchers in this area.
[ Reply | Options ]Interesting article: "It really does raise this question for all of us and for the country: when we work so hard to open academics and other opportunities for women, what kind of return do we expect to get for that?" said Marlyn McGrath Lewis, director of undergraduate admissions at Harvard, who served as dean for coeducation in the late 1970's and early 1980's.
[ Reply | Options ]Thanks for posting! I wonder for how many women those choices are dictated by the fact that everyone is forced to work longer hours to get ahead, makes ends meet and the family is affected by the time commitment required to sustain a career? (Disclosure: I grew up in the 70s and I don't remember too many dads working the hours that dads seem to work today, and I grew up in a very affluent area.)
[ Reply | Options ]what I'd also like to see studies based on total family-hours worked. What I mean is, mother hours plus father hours WOH. On another note, I also grew up in the 70s (in affluent burbs) and had two working parents (mother a patent attorney and father in finance). Both worked long-ish hours and had unsavory commutes. They worked more hours than my husband and I do combined, and if you add commuting time it's even more dramatic. We have chosen to manage our careers/work commitments so that we can be home regularly by dinner. (I didn't want the kind of life my parents had.) So it drives me crazy that people think the only way to have a career is to work 12 hours a day. It doesn't have to be that way.
[ Reply | Options ]
what a ridiculous question, most of the SAHMs I know have had excellent education and a successful career for a number of years before having kids and quitting their jobs ( myself included). Did it ever cross your mind that some of them may have successfully retired by their mid-40s and no longer need to work to support themselves?
[ Reply | Options ]I think that the point is to preserve options for your dd. I don't think anyone knows when their dd is 5 what she will want to do in life and providing the best education possible gives her options. That said, I went to HYP and do feel some responsibility to work both to be a role model for my dd but also, because I feel that I owe it to my parents who sacrificed a lot for me to attend (I might feel differently if the tuition check was pocket change to them). One other thing that hasn't been addressed is that to the extent many women from the elite schools are "opting out" of the workforce and not using their education to its potential, it seems to be a poor allocation of resources. ~90% of HYP applicants are rejected and some of those ...
[ Reply | Options ]ITTTTA! Harvard class of 1990 has a similar rate of working mothers (41.1% of mothers with 2+ kids) to the rate of women working in Afghanistan (38.2%). I would have loved to go to HYP yet went to an (excellent) alternative baby Ivy. However, I can't help but wonder if I'd have had an even more successful career if I had gotten one of those 59% of the women's spots at Harvard... Maybe I would have married better, too ;)
[ Reply | Options ]
Just because you are not working does not mean education was a waste. Education leads to a well balanced, enriched life. Not just the fact you can gain employment. If you do not see this you missed the main idea of education. Sorry for you!
[ Reply | Options ]Unfortunately you're missing the point -- there's education and then there's an insistence on top tier education for its own sake, and it is the latter which seems a waste of resources when there are many others who will make better use of such an education.
[ Reply | Options ]But life is not a controlled laboratory experience. You have no idea who is going to make "better use" (whatever that means...monetary success? benefit to society at large? government service? fame?) of an education. There are so many things that can derail a career path and many people dip in and out of the workforce in the course of a lifetime, particularly as the workplace becomes more fluid and few people stay with the same company for, say, 30 years. In the end, you just don't know. So pick the most meritorious candidates at the time of application and let the chips fall where they may!
[ Reply | Options ]All of you rah-rah quality of life gals, tell me this. What would happen if your husband came home TODAY and said he wanted a divorce and had frozen your assets? What about if he were to do this 15 years from now, when your kids have left home? Consider it.
[ Reply | Options ]That's why a good education is never a waste. You can pick up the pieces. Maybe not as well as you could if you didn't leave the workforce, but you still have better options than an uneducated or undereducated woman. You must also consider that many women on this board worked for years and years in highly paid fields and saved $$$$ before having kids. This changes the equation entirely.
[ Reply | Options ]Having had inherited wealth, I will tell you nothing beats having an INCOME. Nothing. And I think that all of these women should consider practically, not hypothetically, exactly what type of job they could expect to get at this very moment were this to happen. I have seen too many women get unhappily surprised at how quickly education gets devalued when not substantiated by ongoing experience.
[ Reply | Options ]There is real truth to this. However, I'm still of the opinion that women should support other women's choices. And practically speaking, a very educated woman has a better chance of landing on her feet in the event of a traumatic life changing event.
[ Reply | Options ]I am a feminist, which means I believe in equality for women. I do not believe in a free-for-all where anyone can choose anything and I am meant to "support" it. I have seen very educated women get screwed this way and I don't think that you can be for equality of opportunity and only socially make it acceptable for one gender to drop out.
[ Reply | Options ]Who said it should be socially acceptable for only 1 gender to opt out. But I don't know why you consider SAHM a "free for all" that you need to support or that it's dropping out. Why the hostility. Feminism does mean choices and supporting the choices of other women. It's just as tyrannical to insist that all women stay in the workforce for the entire time their children are young as it is to insist that all women stay home. And yes, mean should be able to make this choice, too. (And some do.)
[ Reply | Options ]No, that is not what feminism means. It is a real movement with a real meaning: equality for women. When women argue that they have MORE rights than men, ie the right to stay home full time while their children are in school and be financially supported for life it is DEFINITELY not my duty to support them. I think for women to demand this "option" while not extending it to men is unfair.
[ Reply | Options ]When have women argued that they have more rights than men? And in what country are you living in where you think women enjoy more rights than men? And as for women "demanding" this option, I don't think you could say this for sure when this discussion is a marital one between the 2 parties involved. Whatever the couple decides is should be OK. And men do stay home in certain instances. Who's saying they shouldn't? I don't see one post arguing this point.
[ Reply | Options ]There is no right to stay at home, legally or otherwise. It's a decision. I can't personally influence every couple's decision as to who should work, when, where, for how long. But I will make this clear as you seem to be so worried about how men are faring in this country. I support a women's right to stay home or to work AND a man's right to stay home or work. I don't look down upon anyone for the decisions that they have made as a couple. And while women have a more socially sanctioned option, so too do they have more social condemnation for whatever choice they make.
[ Reply | Options ]The point is not that childcare is a chore. I have a friend who did really well as an analyst and went to columbia to become a teacher when she wanted to start a family. She is now a mom of two and a teacher. The idea is what happens to these expensive professional educations when a significant portion decides to just not work.
[ Reply | Options ]I am not sure who you are talking to, but I wrote one of these responses so I will bite. I think we should all be clear on the issue. If the issue is simply children needing one parent at home all day, men would do it in equal numbers to women. The fact that there is such a disparity is troubling and casts doubts on the reason cited for staying home.
[ Reply | Options ]What reason cited for staying home? Lots of women have lots of different reasons. There is not one reason. And men in our culture are taught to treat low-no pay work as emasculating. This must change. But surely you won't argue that women should stop doing low paid, rewarding jobs like social work? There are paid workplace disparities, too. But I don't think that's what your issue is.
[ Reply | Options ]There were a lot of posts above where you did not answer the questions. Ivy men and women shouldn't stay home. And you can't sidestep your obvious contempt for SAH because they're wasting their educations. But somehow you call yourself a feminist. So no, I don't like your answers, because you surely despise a lot of women out there, even those working in "pink collar ghettos."
[ Reply | Options ]actually, there are people who go to school to study early education and childcare. If you hire one of these highly-qualified people, you create a job and they get a return on their investment in their education. And they take the real job of providing a stimulating environment for your child seriously. To me, this makes perfect sense.
[ Reply | Options ]most people can not afford this type of childcare. and i doubt there are enough of this ideal type to go around. most nannies/daycare professionals are not of this caliber in terms of background and education. this is pie in the sky thinking and not a practical solution for most. do a quick search on sittercity or other sites to see how much more these sitters make. it's for economic elites only.
[ Reply | Options ]ok. 1) if there were more demand, there would be more supply. ask your dh who understands these things. 2) raising children often involves financial sacrifice. my clothing and "beauty" expenditure is about $200/month (i am not kidding) but I pay a trained nanny $4500 per month, and 2 of my 3 are in full-time private. And while I agree that not all people who studied early ed want to be nannies, at that salary and the other conditions we offer, many more would look for this type of job.
[ Reply | Options ]
So you don't support SAHM? And we misunderstand, what are the rules so that you, as a feminist, support this arrangement?
[ Reply | Options ]
-
-
You have the inability to think critically and furthermore if you are living in NYC I can't believe you would even question a parents insistence to be competitive and seek the best education possible. Life is full of extraneous variables. No one knows what their child's ambitions will be like in ten or fifteen years.
[ Reply | Options ]
My only issue with this is how much people view the pursuit of a "well balanced, enriched life" as a female-only perogative. Very few of the women on here extolling the virtues of education for education's sake and talking about how great it is to have choices and options would be happy if their highly educated, affluent DH's suddenly decided to "opt out".
[ Reply | Options ]BINGO. It is the bonus of being a woman. A trick of the system. And everyone gets it.
[ Reply | Options ]Well if society were structured differently, then you might see couples going into it deciding who's meant to work longer hours and who's meant to shoulder most of the burden of child care. How do lesbian couples work it out? (In that they're outside of the traditional man works, woman stays home cultural expectation). I'd be curious to hear anyone chime in on that.
[ Reply | Options ]not everyone thinks this. it may be a function of living in nyc with everyone gung-ho about career and money. lots of people try to live a well balanced, enriched family life. it's not always possible in this economy anyway.
[ Reply | Options ]Gung-ho about career and money in one context only - all men should have careers and make money. For women, it's optional (even in NYC).
[ Reply | Options ]that is a umc, uc luxury. most of rest of the country has to work regardless especially in this economic climate
[ Reply | Options ]-
No. Men are perfectly capable of staying home too. Many choose not to for a variety of reasons, including that they feel traditional women's work is beneath them.
[ Reply | Options ]More like they know their wives would flip out completely if they even suggested such a thing. My only point is that all the talk on this thread about "choices" has quite a bit of sexism underlying it - most of these women are making a choice for themselves that they would absolutely deny to someone else - that "someone else" being the person they are married to.
[ Reply | Options ]There is sexism is assuming that their wives would flip. And as for choices, I don't think that men on the whole have done a great job of promoting choices for women, do you?
[ Reply | Options ]If you speak to the average professional man, many claim that they would LOVE to be able to be a SAHD or just stay home. LOVE IT.
[ Reply | Options ]Of course it is. The couples involved choose not to exercise it for various reasons. It is readily available to any couple who wants to do it. There are no barriers to entry, no educational requirements and no paperwork to fill out. Just stay home if you can and if you are strong enough to buck societal convention.
[ Reply | Options ]
that's an issue for the 2 people in a marriage to work out. but this post is about what society at large should do about women opting out. i don't see how you can deny women a top education just because she might SAH at some point.
[ Reply | Options ]No, the post is about why women who have chosen to SAHM pursue top educations for their DDs. And the dominant responses have been, essentially, is that "there is more to life then money", "education is valuable for it's own sake", etc. Which is all true enough, but doesn't acknowledge the fact that SOMEONE is still using their education to make money - it's just not the woman writing the post. Her Ivy education didn't give her the power to make bills disappear. So I think the OP was right in part - part of pursuing the top education is putting yourself in a position to find the high earning spouse. Because without him, you don't actually have any "choices".
[ Reply | Options ]But you know it's more complicated than that. DDs may not want to pursue same path as mother. Mother may have inherited and earned own money and that cash is paying for DD's education. What about grandparents who pay for education. Is that OK? The point is that there are some many variables here that OP's premise that SAHM who want their DDs in TT schools is foolhardy is so wrongheaded for so many reasons. And let's face it. High earning spouses don't always go to college and plenty of GED, stripper types marry rich men.
[ Reply | Options ]Wait, are you arguing that UMC, UC women who have attended Spence and then Yale get divorced and go on welfare? Huh? And what does SAHM have to do with husbands going broke. Usually a woman who stays home does so because her dh earns more than enough to support her and the family (at least that's how it usually works in the circles you are referring to in Manhattan.)
[ Reply | Options ]Do you live in NYC? Most mothers I know are well educated, had lucrative careers, saved and had kids later in life. Hardly the type who can't support themselves. And many of the Madoff victims were often from our MOTHER'S generation and never really had careers or their own money.
[ Reply | Options ]You must have personal experiences with a broken home or marriage. If so, I can understand your passion about this matter. But many SAHM return to the workforce. Or stay married and live happily ever after. It's one thing to be risk averse and it's another to live in fear and have that be the dominant factor in making family decisions. Why must you infantilize these women when you have no idea how much they've saved or how they've decided to proceed with being SAH?
[ Reply | Options ]
-
maybe i'm wrong, but i think that's because so much of the $ in nyc is in finance and related areas, and that's totally male dominated and testosterone filled. i doubt too many GS traders are going to opt out and decide to go back to work as kindergarten teachers.
[ Reply | Options ]Ha. All the guys I know say their wives who are SAHMs have a "sweet deal" and they wish some sugar momma would get them that.
[ Reply | Options ]Then they should put up or shut up. If they don't like it, make a change in the household. But obviously, they're getting something out of the deal, whether it's feeling more secure about their childcare, not getting threatened by their wife's success in the workplace, or getting to feel like a big man by being the breadwinner and also getting to bitch about it. it works both ways.
[ Reply | Options ]
I hate to grace this with a response. It's just as bad as the "why have children if you have no interest in raising them?" question but here goes anyway. I went to Yale and then Columbia Business school and stay at home with my three kids. 1) I had a great career before and I will again 2) I'm never intimidated by anyone and I'd never miss any political/cultural or any reference. THAT I'd hate for my daughter to witness 3) I've studied and traveled and have been around the block enough to know and teach my children that life isn't fair, sometimes it is about luck, that a diverse group produces far better results on everything than does a homogeneous one 4) I've learned and can teach them to live and let live and not judge others for the...
[ Reply | Options ]-
-
-
It's not inherently wrong, of course. But staying at home versus WOHM is a biggie and that one's not to judge in my book. I have a friend who stays at home, despite a very impressive educational background, because her mother was an incredibly successful woman and she, for whatever reasons, felt quite scarred by it. Would you blame her for making different decisions? I have a couple impressive degrees but it took us ten years to get pregnant and I wasn't about to miss so much of the experience after all that. My best friend is also Harvard educated and her career never took off. Bad luck or whatever. You can't just sign up for a fabulous career you know. In other words, you never know the whole story so worry about yourself and your ...
[ Reply | Options ]Was your husband willing to miss so much of the experience? I confine my worries to my family, thanks. My comment was that claiming that judging is wrong is not accurate.
[ Reply | Options ]but why couldn't your friend pursue a mediocre career? there are tons of normal jobs that can be done 9-5. your friend's example reinforces another trend I observe, and that's HYP-type women who get into the working world and realise they aren't the top of the pack like they are used to, and that the working world is difficult to control and manipulate in the way they are used to. So rather than adapt and learn more about the world and themselves, or accept a level of personal performance and reward that is within spitting distance of the norm, they opt out with the excuse that it's better for the children.
[ Reply | Options ]-
Now we can't have any concerns about sociological trends and implications for our daughters?
[ Reply | Options ]It seems like you are less concerned about sociological trends and more interested in judging and bashing women whose choices don't exact follow what you deem to be appropriate.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
I'll bite. I judge women who judge other women for their parenting/working choices. It doesn't help and we need to stick together and support each other whenever possible.
[ Reply | Options ]-
agreed. judging and our skills in judgement are key components of human nature. we need to judge. the challenge is choosing the actions you take as a consequence of your judgements. it may sound duplicitous, but in my judgement many of my friends who are SAHM should find WOH that provides a better return to society for the resources that were invested in them when they were younger. But they are still my friends and I admire them and their parenting and I would leave work early to help them if they were in need etc etc but I still hold my judgement (and many other more trivial judgements - about their hair color, their clothes, the sofa they just bought, etc) If you don't judge, I am sorry but you are lying to yourself.
[ Reply | Options ]
-
I see a HUGE difference between school-aged and undergrad education vs. graduate education. I think a good liberal arts education is valuable for anybody, even if they chose to stay home, and don't begrudge anybody with an Ivy Education who choses to stay home. At the graduate school level, I have to be honest, I feel a bit differently. At professional schools especially, the education is not about finding yourself, it's about preparing you for a career.
[ Reply | Options ]
This ridiculous fake post sounds like it's from that loser poster who places these up with her husband and then they laugh about the intensity of the responses. You probably all could have saved your energy.
[ Reply | Options ]This question was not expressed tactfully. But I think there is a small point in there somewhere. Specifically, there is a lot of bashing of WOHM on this board, which seems ironic when posters also say that they hope that their DD will be allowed to make any choices/ the best personal choices for their lives in the future- even if that is being a WOHM. Also, there is a LOT of bashing of schools on this board, even so-called TT ones, by both SAHM and WOHM. Again, very ironic when posters here are saying that the point of a great education is so that their DD's can have choices. I was a WOHM and now transitioning into a SAHM. I don't think it would have made a tremendous difference if I went to Spence versus Chapin...
[ Reply | Options ]This is exactly my feeling. And no, I don't think it's equal. WOHMs are more heavily bashed than SAHMs, and the bashing is meaner. So yes, a lot of good thoughts today, but where was all this when WOHMs are bashed? I'm more bothered by the fact that SAHMs stay silence when WOHMs are called all sorts of things on this board but rally when it comes to their DDs.
[ Reply | Options ]not sure i understand your point, but i would like to. can you explain more what you mean by this?
[ Reply | Options ]OK, I'll try. WOHM get heavily bashed. To me there is nothing worse than telling a mother that she shouldn't have children (as someone mentioned upthread, a frequent mode of attack). A few SAHMs defend WOHMs, but there is no rally of "Let woman/DDs decide" that is common to this thread. So my question is, if you want your DDs to have the option, then where was all this support when WOHMs are bashed? Why don't SAHMs come to the defense of WOHMs when the idiots say the nastiest things? Why don't they feel the need to defend their fellow mothers the same way they feel the need to defend their DDs' option to opt in or opt out of working?
[ Reply | Options ]i think i get it. and i am pretty sure that i agree with you. this tends to be a very emotional issue. however, if people really cared to research, they would find that there is peer-reviewed evidence of a trend to highly educated women opting out of the labor force. Many of these SAHMs are pushing DDs to seek premium education. There is also research finding that having a WOHM is correlated to the likelihood of DDs choosing to be WOHMs as well. This means that the diminishing proportion of DDs in premium education with WOHMs will become an even smaller proportion of the workforce in 15-20 years. It also means that an increasingly larger portion of overall premium education budget is going to DDs with SAHM who are less likely to WOH ...
[ Reply | Options ]Just so you know, this is not true. The so-called "opt out revolution" (in which hig